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topic 23536p2

Spray finish of silver nitrate, especially on styrene / polystyrene

chrome paint   Gold Touch   J G Nikolas   M and M Metallizing


1       2



A discussion started in 2006 & continuing through 2017

March 10, 2017

thumbs up sign Hi Marvin,
I already understand what you mean. I will try it later.
Thanks a lot.

Andy Tan [returning]
- Penang, Malaysia



March 12, 2017

Q. Hi sir,

Need help. We want to know activator name (applied before silver solution) or how to make it.

sameer haque
handicraft - delhi india


sidebar2











sidebar2
March 2017

Hi Sameer. Apologies, but you tried to post stuff with 3 variations of your name, on several different threads, and I didn't know they were from the same person, Further, taken on their own, and posted on threads about lacquer for gold plating, etc., I didn't always comprehend them. I now understand your situation, so we're posting all of it together now. Sorry for the delay!

Regards,

pic of Ted Mooney
Ted Mooney, P.E. RET
finishing.com
Pine Beach, New Jersey
Striving to live "Aloha"


Q. Dear sir,

Greeting of the day!

Need your help to remove the mist or water bubble from resin item while doing metallic silver surface.

We are unable to spray properly and it is being expended.

Kindly help.

-----

23536

Q. Hi team,

My name is haque; looking for best lacquer for silver plating.
As we are using PU for base coat, but there is problem of bubbles; suggest us the right base coat for silver plating on resin and wood.

Please revert asap. I will be thankful.

-----

Q. Hi team,
Creating of the day.

My name is iftekhar. Want to start a business of plating on resin statue and wood.
I have being using UP gloss lacquer as a base coat but there is a problem of bubbles and DI water is not staying at object. Please help me. And suggest the right base coat lacquer for same use. ( UV_CURED) As silver mirror plating. Attached is the picture for ready reference.

sameer haque
handicraft - delhi india


March 12, 2017

A. To understand the nature of your current issues (water not staying on item and water beading/bubble) we must understand the nature and history of the type of metal coating that you are trying to attempt. The basis of what we call today "Spray On Chrome" dates back to 1835 German chemist Justus von Liebig, the reduction of Silver Nitrate to elemental Silver and deposited into a glass sheet; that was the start of the Silvering Mirrors history, and that is exactly what this process (spray on chrome) really is, creating a front surface mirror; and we do that by re-creating a glass like surface (PU gloss coating) on other dielectric surfaces (non conductive articles like plastic, wood, resin).

The issue is that glass is a very unique surface and it has a very low surface tension, and when properly cleaned the water (and chemicals in it) will completely cover the surface ... but Automotive/Industrial coatings like PU have a very high water surface tension, and no matter how much you clean the surface the water will just bead and will not stay on.
So how do most people get around that constraint? I personally use a proprietary wetting agent that lowers the surface tension and makes the surface behave like glass; others use Flame/plasma treatment to lower the surface tension (I personally don't use it because I don't like to play with fire while working with expensive articles).

Please watch this instructional videos I made on the subject.

Pre wetting agent high water tension:

Post wetting agent low water tension:

When you see videos of pros using just the sensitizer and it appears to flow it is because they use expensive proprietary silvering chemicals and the sensitizer already comes with wetting agent. Another interesting thing is that right after they silver the piece, they use a chemical to counter the wetting agent effect; they do this so the water beads and is extracted much faster and better using forced air. I personally don't use this and just force dry the piece the best I can.

Marvin Sevilla
- Managua, Nicaragua


March 2017

thumbs up sign Wow, quite an exposition, Marvin. Thanks!

Regards,

pic of Ted Mooney
Ted Mooney, P.E. RET
finishing.com
Pine Beach, New Jersey
Striving to live "Aloha"



March 13, 2017

Q. Hi sir,

Thanks for reply, I am really thankful to you.

I have 2 other problem as well.
a) Suggest name of activator to do silver plating (what is to be added into water to make activator)?
b) Suggest us the name of how can make good reducer from glucose (composition)?

sameer haque [returning]
- delhi india


March 16, 2017

A. Sameer haque, for your question of "Need help. We want to know activator name (applied before silver solution) or how to make it." :-

1. Tin II Chloride in this process or any Spray Silvering process is to seed the non conductive surface with an active metal that will make the reduced silver stick to it and form the silver mirror; it's prepared by mixing about 5 grams of Tin II Chloride with 25 ml of HCl then adding about 1 L of deionized Water (DI Water); after the piece has been degreased, and its surface tension has been lowered (wetting agent) the sensitizer will be sprayed and allowed to seed the surface for at least one minute but no more than 3 minutes.
(This solution formula is from Marvin. You can just follow this formula to use or if you think you want to try to make it better, it's all on your own. Good Luck.)

2. Any super high gloss base coat will do. Just need to keep the pieces after spray base coat for 12 hours then only can spray on silver (p/s: make sure the place to store it is clean and oil free in Air.)

GOOD LUCK

Thanks a lot to all people that are giving away information. This forum is perfect for all :)

Andy Tan
- Malaysia, Penang


March 18, 2017

Q. HI,
NEED ADVICE FROM YOU GUYS. I FEEL TO CHANGE ONE OF THE CHEMICALS FOR SILVERING SOLUTION AND I DON'T KNOW CAN IT WORK OR NOT?
NOW I'M USING THIS CHEMICAL:-
AGNO3 + NH3 + KOH.
CAN I CHANGE IT TO THIS:-
AGNO3 + NH4Cl + KOH =??

NH3 IS REALLY TOO SMELLY AND QUITE HARMFUL IF ACCIDENTALLY DRINK IT. FOR NH4CI NOT SO HARMFUL. AND IT WORKS IF I USE NH4Cl?

THANKS

Andy Tan [returning]
- Malaysia, Penang


simultaneous March 18, 2017

A. Many if not all of the chemicals in the Silvering process are quite dangerous if swallowed. I do not suggest changing Ammonium hydroxide with Ammonium chloride, it will not work at all, you will most likely be precipitating insoluble Silver Chloride instead of creating Silver hydroxide, the basic process has not changed in nearly 200 years, there has been many improvements, but most of them made towards the reducer and sensitizer, but the base of the process is the silver ammonia complex, and there is no changing that.

Marvin Sevilla
- Managua Nicaragua


March 18, 2017

A. I am not sure why posts have not been posted yet, I gave an extended reply, but this time I will just go ahead and say that no, you cannot use Ammonium Chloride instead of Ammonium Hydroxide, the reaction between Ammonium Chloride and Silver Nitrate is insoluble Silver Chloride and Ammonium Nitrate, the process have been the same for nearly 200 years and while Ammonia can be toxic, most of the other chemicals can be quite harmful if swallowed.

Marvin Sevilla
- Managua Nicaragua

----
Ed. note: Sorry for the delay, cousin Marvin. Postings are done manually so the site doesn't drown in spam or suffer the unpleasantry of ad hominem postings.
Even though precedence goes to replies from our most helpful responders like yourself, still I take an occasional morning or weekend off :-)


March 20, 2017

Q. Hi Marvin,
Oops... I already bought ammonium chloride. Anyway, to make 1 L high grade ammonium hydroxide by using ammonium chloride?

And thanks a lot for the information.

Andy Tan [returning]
- Malaysia, Penang


March 20, 2017

A. I am afraid you will need to get Ammonium Hydroxide, I suggest you use reagent grade chemicals and don't even try to make your own if are serious about this as a business, otherwise you will be plagued by inconsistent results. This process is very complex as it is and by trying to make your own chemicals you will just bring more Variables to it; that is why big business just purchase the chemicals from vendors that can guarantee consistent results and give tech support ... but I understand where you're coming from because I tried that myself with okay results.

Marvin Sevilla
- Managua, Nicaragua


March 21, 2017

Q. Hi Marvin,
But I already brought ammonium chloride (1kg) bottle. Nothing I can do on it? Is wasting money if I just throw into bin. I try to refer in youtube (How to make ammonia hydroxide from ammonium chloride). It's just seen very simple to make ammonia solution. But I need to diluted into 1 L and dilute again into 500 mL.
Anyways to know how many grams of ammonium chloride and KOH needed to use to process 1 L

Thanks for the earlier answer.

Andy Tan [returning]
- Malaysia, Penang


March 2017

A. Hi Andy. I don't think Marvin will want to spend his time detailing & quantifying a procedure for doing what he just told you not to do :-)

23536

I suggest that you follow those youtube instructions or the many student pages available about how to make ammonia gas from ammonium chloride =>
If students can do it, you can do it without Marvin holding your hand as you try to drag him where he already told us he doesn't want to go :-)

But I don't understand how making your own ammonia from ammonia chloride lessens the issue of ammonia being smelly and dangerous to drink. Best of luck. Regards,

pic of Ted Mooney
Ted Mooney, P.E. RET
finishing.com
Pine Beach, New Jersey
Striving to live "Aloha"


March 22, 2017

A. Mr. Ted, I've been there and done that, believing I could make every component of the system myself, only to hit a brick wall. It's time consuming, results are never guaranteed and inconsistent. It was a learning experience because I am not a chemist, but I got to learn many things; I am very grateful for the learned experience, but it's not for everyone to take upon themselves.

Now I order the most complex chemicals like silvering/reducing solution/wetting agent from the least expensive provider in the USA; I pay to bring them to Nicaragua, and while the profit margins are not as large as home made chemicals with 95% quality and accuracy, you can't put a price on dependability, quality assurance and tech support from a trusted vendor.

Marvin Sevilla
- Managua Nicaragua



March 23, 2017

Q. Hi, thanks Andy Tan for reply..

Team, please help to make perfect silver mirror solution 1 l.

getting confused in.. AgNO3+NH3+KOH
rcho+OH and other.

How much is this require for. Suggest me the quantity, both the mixtures; please suggest quantity grams required for all chemical and steps. I will be grateful to you.

sameer haque
- delhi india


March 28, 2017

Team please help.

sameer haque
- delhi india


March 29, 2017

A. Mr. Sameer Haque, when you first published your question about the issues you had with high surface tension you were having with your PU base for the Spray On Silver process, I believed that you had figured out the process and the chemicals, but it seems that you are starting from scratch.

Let me tell you my story in hopes it may help you in the long run.
When I first saw a video of "Spray On Chrome" done by one of the big players in the industry, I was beside myself, amazed, it all looked like magic and I made up my mind that I wanted to do this as a business. Then I found out just how expensive this can be, but I was not discouraged, I thought that maybe if I could get myself the basic chemicals I could make it big, be the first Nicaraguan in this business.
After learning that spray on chrome was really just silver spraying, I dedicated countless hours learning just the basics (I had not found this very helpful forum); I purchased expensive Silver Nitrate, Sodium Hydroxide, Ammonium Hydroxide and inverted sugar (table sugar and citric acid), the basics of Tollens' reagent; it all worked very well in test tubes made out of glass. I said to myself that I was ready for testing on properly prepared plastic pieces (plastic spoons), but nothing --nothing-- was working; the chemicals were not staying on the spoons, and I kept wasting precious time and money. Things were not looking good; I was desperate and only myself to blame because of the countless variables, but I was too dumb to know when to quit.

It took me about 6 months to save enough money to purchase and bring silver mirroring chemicals (spray on chrome chemicals were out of my league), surely this time I would make it ... Big and Success was a matter of time. I got the chemicals, I had the plastic spoons ready, but things didn't go as planned; I was able to Silver the spoons, but I had issues with the basecoat and clear coat, they were interacting with each other, ruining the test pieces. I was very disappointed, but progress was made nonetheless.

I gathered up strength and money again for one last try, the third one had to be the charm right?, I learned that automotive clear coat was the best (albeit it introduced higher surface tension as opposed to single component enamels that were more glass-like in nature). So I purchased a wetting agent, automotive base/clear coat and chemicals from trusted Mirroring company (they didn't know anything about spray on chrome yet so no hope for tech support). Wow! I was very impressed with the results, beautiful first surface mirror on properly prepared plastic spoons (simulating a future working piece), but I was not out of the woods yet; as impressive as the silver mirror was, my next and last obstacle to success was the top coat -- it turned all of my working pieces to yellow tone; I was in trouble: unless my future clients wanted colored chrome (which I did plenty in blue, gold, red), I could not make the pieces look like real chrome. I tried ever single cleat coat available and none worked, I was really disappointed. After a few years of research, a lot of money invested, time wasted, sweat and tears all for naught, but I was too close to success to give up, and again too dumb to quit.

So yet again I gathered up strength and resources to bring the needed chemicals and tools, so after years of self research, a lot of money spent, sweat & tears I was able to accomplish what I set out to do. But success is a relative term, and Business Success and a Successful Spray On Chrome set up are not the same thing ... I am still struggling with making beautiful art that is well paid and costumers that want that beautiful art for less & less money.

So here is my advise, I have a friend in the business in India; here is my email address (nicamarvin2005@yahoo.com). Contact me and I will send you his contact information; purchase the required chemicals and tech support from him and save yourself the grief you are surely going to experience.

Marvin Sevilla
- Managua Nicaragua


March 2017

thumbs up signHi. We thank Marvin for his yeoman work on this terrific response (and his dozens of other great responses)! We have included his e-mail address as he requested.

But in the general case we do not put readers into contact with each other for a few reasons -- one of which is that this website is only possible through the generous support of our advertisers -- two of whom offer proprietary chemicals for spray-on-chrome:

Gold Touch  J G Nikolas

Regards,

pic of Ted Mooney
Ted Mooney, P.E. RET
finishing.com
Pine Beach, New Jersey
Striving to live "Aloha"


March 29, 2017

Thanks Mr. Ted Mooney, I appreciate your comments. Yes it's true we need to support our supporters and I am the first to advise to purchase from our generous advertisers if you intend to be serious about this business, I am not sure how the customs in India are about importing from U.S.A based companies, but I pay a hefty fee and Nicaragua is basically only about 2 hours from the USA.
Please remove the email address as reference if you must, I believe he could get in contact with an Indian provider locally.

Marvin Sevilla
- Managua, Nicaragua


March 2017

thumbs up sign Hi again, Marvin. I was taking the opportunity to post a banner ad for our supporting advertisers, and explaining that we don't generally want readers posting their contact info. But there are exceptions to every rule, and Sameer contacting you is fine in this case. Thanks again :-)

Regards,

pic of Ted Mooney
Ted Mooney, P.E. RET
finishing.com
Pine Beach, New Jersey
Striving to live "Aloha"



April 8, 2017

Q. Hi,

Team, I need top coat suggestions.

Seems yellow silver after spray.

Please solve this issue. How we can improve this?

sameer haque
- delhi india


April 2017

thumbs up sign Best of luck cousin Sameer, and anyone is welcome to answer, but I'd suspect that we're pretty much done here :-)

Regards,

pic of Ted Mooney
Ted Mooney, P.E. RET
finishing.com
Pine Beach, New Jersey
Striving to live "Aloha"


April 12, 2017

A. The fact that you have made it to the Protective Top Coat means that you have done some progress, which is good, but you are not out of the woods yet.

Okay, so why does the spray silvering turn yellow after clear coating it?
Unlike metals such as aluminum or chrome, silver has an optical property called thin film interference that makes it appear pale gold or yellow when coated with any thin transparent film even distilled water. To counter-act this phenomenon, it is necessary to tint the first layer you apply to the silver with transparent Violet . While blue is the color opposite of yellow in terms of light, many blue colored tints tend to look green when they are very dilute. The red tones in a Violet tint counteract the greenish look of the blue to give a pure chrome like blue, not every tint will work and professionals use automotive UV resistant Violet tints or what are called candy concentrate.

Here are a few videos I made about the subject.

Marvin Sevilla
- Managua, Nicaragua


April 15, 2017

A. I posted an answer to this question twice days ago, I was waiting for at least one to be posted, but it seems it got buried in the sea of questions that most likely spam this forum, it may get tiresome having to post the same answer multiple times, but I am sure I am not the only one so I will keep doing this.

To the question:

Unlike metals such as aluminum or chrome, silver has an optical property called "thin film interference" that makes it appear pale gold or yellow when coated with any thin transparent film even distilled water. To counter-act this phenomenon, it is necessary to tint the first layer of the top coat that you apply to the silver with a translucent violet tint. While blue is the color opposite of yellow in terms of light, many UV resistant blue tints tend to look green when they are very dilute. The red tones in a Violet tint counteract the greenish look of the blue to give a chrome-like appearance.

Marvin Sevilla
- Managua, Nicaragua


sidebar2
April 2017

thumbs up signHi Marvin, thanks for your generous & insightful response! Sorry for the delay on your posting; but since it's the second time on this thread that you've mentioned the delays on just this one thread, it's a good time to clarify ...

Yes, we receive more than a thousand spams per day, and we occasionally get swamped, especially when vacation week comes right before the Easter holidays. But as long as the e-mail was sent using the forms, they never get filtered into a spam box; and if they are answers from a regular responder like yourself, they ALL do eventually get posted.

We all must make choices, and my choice was to try to build a quality reference site via manual posting, rather than a hostile, spammy, ad hominem, automatic posting site ... even though it means people don't always get immediate answers. The single biggest time sink for me is that readers do not patiently use the search engine, so they post repetitive questions that were already answered, and they post on way off-topic threads when there were threads that perfectly matched their question. If every thread wanders into everything, readers can't find anything, and the threads drop out of google search ... so I just do the best I can, doing the search myself, rearranging & renumbering, separating & combining, but it does mean delays; so, yes, new questions unfortunately do frequently get buried, but 90 percent were repetitive or abstract, or posted against an unrelated thread anyway:-)

Regards,

pic of Ted Mooney
Ted Mooney, P.E. RET
finishing.com
Pine Beach, New Jersey
Striving to live "Aloha"


April 28, 2017
wikipedia
Flame Treatment

A. I would like to add that I finally decided to use the Flame Treatment process instead of the wetting agent, I have tested it on small pieces and not only makes the highly hydrophobic surface of the articles very wettable and hydrophilic, it also provides outstanding adhesion of the Silver layer.

My concern was using a flame on a highly combustible article(plastic parts covered with petroleum base coating), but when properly applied the process is rather safe and the process is well documented and understood.

I am building a set up identical to this one on this video, Propane Torch kit for about $40 and a propane tank for larger parts.

Marvin Sevilla
- Managua, Nicaragua



June 14, 2017 2nd Request: August 15, 2017

Q. Hi everyone

I need help with reducer I am using 15 gm of L(+),150mg D(+),7gm Formaldehyde Solution.

It's not working. Do I need to change the quantity or replace the chemical?

Thanks
Vishal Sharma

Vishal Sharma
- Chandigarh, UT, India


October 10, 2017

Q. I need help to give the best reducer for chrome spray.

waleed akh
- jordan amman


October 2017

A. Hi Waleed. Much of this thread has been on that subject. Please try your best to phrase ongoing questions in terms of what has been said. Simply starting over is the kiss of death to a thread :-)

Regards,

pic of Ted Mooney
Ted Mooney, P.E. RET
finishing.com
Pine Beach, New Jersey
Striving to live "Aloha"


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