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topic 8359

Spec QQ-P-416 and AMS-QQ-P-416?

A discussion started in 2001 but continuing through 2019

2001

Q. I am looking for QQ-P-416, I have seen it referred to in many of our manuals, but I want to see the document itself.

Does anyone know if I can view this document online? Thanks for your help

Darrel W [last name deleted for privacy by Editor]
airline - Seattle,Washington, USA


2001

A. Hello Darrel!

QQ-P-416 is a federal specification, and is still active even though SAE jumped the gun and issued AMSQQP416 [link by ed. to spec at TechStreet]. You can get a copy by going to assist.daps.mil [ed.note 2003: this address is outdated, see below response for updated address], clicking on the quicksearch button, and typing in the number. There will be separate pdf files for the base spec and the three amendments.

Good luck!

lee gearhart Lee Gearhart
metallurgist - E. Aurora, New York


2003

Q. I too am looking for the actual doc. ... The link provided doesn't work ... Anyone know where I can find a working link to the QQ-P-416 doc.?

Kevin M [last name deleted for privacy by Editor]
- Warren, Michigan, USA


2003

A. We dislike printing link addresses on these letters pages for that reason. They void the address or change it, and hundreds of our threads need updating.

But the updated address is assist2.daps.dla.mil/quicksearch/ -- I've just checked it and it works today. Good luck.

Ted Mooney, finishing.com Teds signature
Ted Mooney, P.E.
finishing.com - Pine Beach, New Jersey

----
Ed. note 2006: that address is now outdated too; see below]



2006

Q. Hi all, I still can't login the website,

Maybe because I am in China.

So, could anyone share me this file?

Thank you very much.

Root Young
- Suzhou China


2006

! I wish you only good things for you, Root, except that I'm rather happy that you haven't yet been successful in downloading these for free! You can immediately get a copy of the current spec, AMSQQP416 [link by ed. to spec at TechStreet], the free-enterprise way by paying for the download. Good luck!

opinion! It infuriates me that our U.S. politicians tax American small business, only to give the money to beltway bandits to build websites to offer our foreign competitors a free leg up on us. I assume that this madness is the politicians' way of repaying campaign contributors: accept 'contributions'; pay them back a hundred times over with sweetheart deals with taxpayer money; and when American manufacturing jobs are the collateral damage, tough. Those free links never work for long anyway, unlike the free enterprise link we posted back in 2001 which still works :-)

Ted Mooney, finishing.com Teds signature
Ted Mooney, P.E.
finishing.com - Pine Beach, New Jersey



November 10, 2009

! Not too long after FED, MIL and DOD documents were made available free of charge by the government via the internet many of these documents were turned over to institutions such as ASTM and SAE (AMS) which charge for providing copies (hard or electronic). One such case is QQ-P-416 which is now AMS-QQ-P-416. The historical document which may still be available on the DOD-assist site is no longer valid. Absurdly AMS took the QQ spec which was up to revision F and labelled it revision A. They are now up to revision C (C corrects a publishing error in B). It is not intuitively obvious that B and C are later revisions than F. It will be interesting when they eventually reach E (still valid for some aerospace customers) and F for the AMS-QQ-416 particularly since many drawings still specify QQ without the AMS prefix.

Aryeh Asher
- Rehovot, Israel


January 17, 2013

thumbs up signHi. Aryeh. Indeed, the 3rd planet circling Helios is an insane asylum :-)

But the current address for free mil specs is quicksearch.dla.mil

Regards,

Ted Mooney, finishing.com Teds signature
Ted Mooney, P.E.
finishing.com - Pine Beach, New Jersey



What is Class A cadmium plating per QQ-P-416?

August 31, 2015

Q. I have a print that calls out cadmium plating per QQ-P-416, Class A, Type II. I have seen this before but now cannot find a cross reference to this old coding. What thickness is Class A?

Robert Byrne
- Stamps, Arkansas USA


August 2015

Hi Robert. QQ-P-416 [link by ed. to spec at Defense Logistics Agency, dla.mil] was last revised in 2000 and was canceled in 2002. But I don't see any "Class A" -- I see only Class 1 , 2, and 3.

Regards,

pic of Ted Mooney
Ted Mooney, P.E. RET
finishing.com - Pine Beach, New Jersey
Striving to live Aloha


August 31, 2015

Ted,
Your link has expired, you should use this instead:
http://quicksearch.dla.mil/qsDocDetails.aspx?ident_number=51006

The 2002 cancellation notice gives the replacement as SAE AMSQQP416 [link by ed. to spec at TechStreet], which no doubt originated as a straight-up copy of the Mil spec but has gone through a few revisions since. It could be that "class A" was introduced in the SAE version at some point.

http://standards.sae.org/amsqqp416d/

Regardless, the best thing might be to ask the customer which version of QQ-P-416 they are going off of and what paragraph number contains the information relevant to what they are asking for.

ray kremer
Ray Kremer
Stellar Solutions, Inc.
supporting advertiser
McHenry, Illinois
stellar solutions banner

----
Ed. note: Thanks Ray. We've updated the links yet again.



March 23, 2016

Q. I have a customer with a drawing from 1958 calling out QQ-P-416 CLASS A. I get the impression that CLASS A, B, C was changed to CLASS 1, 2, 3, but I am looking for documentation.

Does anyone know where to get QQ-P-416 original version, or REV A, or REV B ? We actually have a copy of REV C in house, but it says CLASS 1, 2, 3.

Jeremy Brumbaugh
- Seattle, Washington


March 29, 2016

A. Jeremy,
As you might have gleaned from the above responses, the online mil spec site only goes back to the 1991 F revision. You might try contacting the Defense Logistics Agency directly to see if they have and can send to you the older versions.

ray kremer
Ray Kremer
Stellar Solutions, Inc.
supporting advertiser
McHenry, Illinois
stellar solutions banner


March 30, 2016

A. Hi Jeremy

The overall rule is to work to the latest spec.

However, your customer may have a valid reason for using an earlier version. You should always ask for confirmation in writing.

If the customer demands a non standard spec, ask for a copy

geoff smith
Geoff Smith
Hampshire, England


March 30, 2016

Q. Thank you Ray and Geoff for your suggestions. I have contacted the DEFENSE LOGISTICS AGENCY and they said they don't have access to older revisions of the spec. They suggested I try to contact a Standardizations Division of the Navy. So, I am trying that now. I will let you know how that turns out.

Just to be clear, what I am trying to find out is, "What does 'CLASS A' in QQ-P-416 CLASS A mean and where can I get the documentation (probably the original spec or early revision) to prove it?" In other words, I am trying to find the original definition of CLASS A and how it relates to CLASS 1, 2, OR 3. For example, I expect to find CLASS A was changed to CLASS 1.

Jeremy Brumbaugh [returning]
- Seattle, Washington


April 1, 2016

thumbs up sign Standardizations Division of the Navy said they did not keep the old revisions of the spec, but referred me to IHS (Information Handling Service). I found the original version of the spec from 1949 there for $30. I ordered it and confirmed that CLASS A, B, and C, were changed into CLASS 1, 2, and 3.

In other words:
CLASS A and CLASS 1 = .0005" thick
CLASS B and CLASS 2 = .0003" thick
CLASS C and CLASS 3 = .0002" thick

Jeremy Brumbaugh [returning]
- Seattle, Washington



Lot Inspection per AMS-QQ-P-416

October 13, 2019

Q. I have a question and someone can help clarifying the definition of a lot in accordance with AMS-QQ-P-416 Para. 4.4.2.1 as follow.

"Lot shall consist of plated articles of the same basis metal composition, class, and type plated and treated under the same conditions and submitted for inspection at one time".

If we have a cadmium plating job that we have to split into 30 smaller lots to be processed separately due to our capacity restriction.

1. Does this definition mean that we have to perform 30 lot acceptant inspections for each individual lot such as visual inspection and thickness verification as called out in para. 4.4.2.2 because these 30 lots were not processed under the same condition by definition?

2. Or we can do just one (1) lot acceptant inspection in accordance with para. 4.4.2.2 for the whole 30 lots since these 30 lots were submitted for inspection at one time?

Thanks,
Annie

Annie Ng
Employee - USA

----
Ed. note: City & State please, Annie. This site is a place of camaraderie, and "USA" is a big place :-)


October 15, 2019

A. Annie,
Just my interpretation here, but let's break it down:

"Lot shall consist of plated articles of the same basis metal composition, class, and type"

One lot can't have parts of different substrate materials, that's pretty standard.

"plated and treated under the same conditions"

Unless there's another mil spec that defines "same conditions" for us, this is enormously open to interpretation. But one should at least be able to argue that parts run through the same bath on the same day using the same parameters (time, temp, etc., concentrations maintained as needed) are using the same conditions.

"and submitted for inspection at one time"

Self explanatory.

I would say that you should be able to split your single lot into 30 batches for processing and retain it as one lot, or perhaps split into 2 or 4 or 6 lots if that's easier for you.

ray kremer
Ray Kremer
Stellar Solutions, Inc.
supporting advertiser
McHenry, Illinois
stellar solutions banner

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