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topic 61100

What is Nickel Fluoride Bath - Dow, British 830,597


May 5, 2020

Q. What is Nickel Fluoride Bath - Dow, British 830,597. Mentioned page 700, Modern Electroplating, Lowenheim

Ed Spencer
- Wichita, Kansas, USA


May 5, 2020

Q. What is 70% HF solution, 5ml/L; KF, 10 g/l; NH4HF2, 25g/l?

Ed Spencer
- Wichita, Kansas, USA


May 2020

A. Hi Ed. Please try to make it less cryptic and abstract by telling us what you are up to. I don't understand what you mean by "What is 70% HF solution ..."

affil. link
"Modern Electroplating
Lowenheim"

from Abe Books

or

That patent is for electroless nickel plating on magnesium. My 3rd Edition of Lowenheim mentions, on page 601, a different formulation of fluoride-based electroless nickel for magnesium, per U.S. Patent 3,152,009.

If you're asking about this because you're trying to electroless nickel plate magnesium, there have been many decades of progress since then, and commercial formulations for electroless nickel plating on magnesium are available; there are probably shops who can do it for you if that is what you're seeking :-)

Luck & Regards,

pic of Ted Mooney
Ted Mooney, P.E. RET
finishing.com - Pine Beach, New Jersey
Aloha -- an idea worth spreading


May 6, 2020

Q. The compound I was questioning was an addendum to an Electroless Ammoniacal Nickel Bath/Pyrophosphate. I tried using Google to find the names associated with the Chemical formula. I couldn't find a reference. I would like to do this myself rather than find a plating shop or proprietary product. Doing it myself is the pleasure.

Ed Spencer [returning]
- Wichita, Kansas USA


May 8, 2020

A. Hi Ed
Firstly, if you read the patent, the identity of the chemicals is self evident. Anything involving HF (hydrofluoric acid) is very dangerous to handle. It requires specific safety precautions and first aid procedures that must be in place before the material is even ordered for the lab. Professionals take this acid very seriously. Since you asked the question, I can be confident that you have very little knowledge of chemistry.
Fortunately it is unlikely to be available to the general public.
A second point is the general mis-understanding of patents. Very rarely do they disclose a practical working formulation. It is common practice to patent most of the ingredients - to protect your process - but omit the one minor addition that actually makes it work. Patents are a useful starting point for professionals but unlikely to offer a working home brew.
I should add that any British patent giving temperatures in Fahrenheit was antique even in 1957!

geoff smith
Geoff Smith
Hampshire, England


May 8, 2020

A. In both US (35 US Code) and European Law (see Wikipedia under 'Sufficiency of Disclosure') the patent application must disclose a claimed invention in sufficient detail for one normally skilled in the art to carry out that invention. That's the law. Now for a plating process, that does not mean a 'man in the street' with no knowledge of plating can carry out the invention. What is means is that a chemist with experience in plating can do so. In addition, in US Patent Law, the applicant must disclose the 'best mode' of the invention in the application. They can hide it in a plethora of examples, but it has to be there. (Look for it!)That's the law in the USA. Because of the risk of losing patent protection, these requirements are (IMHO) almost always adhered to in the western world.

tom_rochester
Tom Rochester
Plating Systems & Technologies, Inc.  
supporting advertiser
Jackson, Michigan, USA
plating systems & technologies banner ad


May 9, 2020

thumbs up sign Hi Tom
I would not argue with what you say but we are not discussing a US or European patent. In 1957 Britain considered Europe a foreign country. They have a totally different legal system which is one of the reasons that we have decided to end our association with them.
I still consider it highly inadvisable for amateurs to have access to HF. What the questioner proposes doing for pleasure could easily become the opposite. I don't know what US medical insurance covers but HF burns would certainly need it.

geoff smith
Geoff Smith
Hampshire, England


May 11, 2020
61100-1hfBurns
Dr. Charles Eaton (http://www.handcenter.org/resumee/resumee.html) Uploaded by TCO at en.wikipedia / CC BY-SA

A. Ed,
Having checked the GB patent 830597, it refers to using 70% HF at a given concentration, which is given as ml/litre or cc/litre - they are both the same. The 70% HF refers to the concentration of the HF in the source solution. So you would need to add 5 mls of the HF solution to each litre of your plating solution. The same idea is applicable to the other sources of fluoride mentioned in the patent.
However, handling any fluoride compound in any quantity is extremely hazardous; fluoride is very nasty stuff and can be very easily absorbed through the skin. This can cause not only "fluoride burns" but also decalcification of the bones, as the fluoride collects in bones and promotes their loss of calcium. Fluoride burns are extremely painful, take a long time to heal and require specialist treatment. It can also result in edema and necrosis of the skin and underlying tissues. The most widely used modern treatment is with Calcium Gluconate [affil. link to product info on Amazon] , which not only treats the burn, but also helps replace the lost calcium.
My advice would be to avoid its use unless you have no other option and are skilled in handling very hazardous chemicals.

Trevor Crichton
- Chesham, UK

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