topic 21345

Acid complexing agent for aluminum to avoid rock hard scale?

A discussion started in 2003 but continuing through 2018

(2003)

Q. I am looking for a complexing agent for aluminum to use in one of our etching baths. The pH of the bath is about 2 and right now we are getting AlF3 scale (rock hard) formed in the bottom of our test tank. This bath will be used for cleaning and etching aluminum alloys. EDTA is an obvious complexing choice, but I have doubts on how well it would hold aluminum at pH 2.

Terry Tomt
- Auburn, Washington, USA

(2003)

A. Dear Terry,

Look for aluminum fluoride is high 19.37. So you can use 5SSA 5 sulphosalycilic acid with log k=29.

Hadi Khosravi
- Tehran, Iran

(2003)

A. Try sodium gluconate.

Ken Vlach
- Goleta, California

Finishing.com honored Ken for his countless carefully
researched responses. He passed away May 14, 2015.
Rest in peace, Ken. Thank you for your hard work
which the finishing world continues to benefit from.

(2003)

Thank you for the responses. I am concerned that sodium gluconate is made to work in alkaline pH region and not in acid as my case is. I will look into the salicylic acid for sure. Also I will research the gluconate.

Terry Tomt
- Auburn, Washington, USA

(2003)

A. It may be of only academic interest to you, or no interest, but this 'rock hard' sludge might only become rock hard when it's allowed to settle and squeeze out the interstitial water. If you can keep it moving, it may never harden. Even after it has hardened, though, I think you can remove it by getting it back into solution via patient washing, and then filter it out. I have seen a number of aluminum sludges/slurries that do this.

I haven't actually tried it, but I'll bet you can clean it out by using an automatic paper filter and recirculating water through the tank, directing the output at the scale

Ted Mooney, P.E.
finishing.com
Pine Beach, New Jersey

Avoid AlF3 rock hard scale formation in acid etching

February 10, 2018 -- this entry appended to this thread by editor in lieu of spawning a duplicative thread

Q. I am looking for advise how to avoid AlF3/AlPO4 scale in our hydrofluoric/phosphoric acid etching baths. The baths are used to etch aluminium alloys. We currently have to shut down the production every 3 months to carry a "dig out" with drilling pneumatic hammers and remove all the AlF3/AlPO4 scale (rock hard)from the walls and bottom of the etching tanks...
What Al complexing agents do you recommend other than EDTA? EDTA is the most obvious choice but don't know if it would work at pH 2 and represents a serious problem to the environment. What could we do to avoid the Al sludge to become rock hard? Continuous stirring? Rising the temperature?Any practical solutions?

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you :-)

Nuno Loureiro
- Peterborough/UK

February 2018

A. Hi Nuno. Any chance of hooking up an automatic paper filter, either for continuous use or for periodic cleanup per the sketch on this thread we appended your inquiry to?

Regards,

Ted Mooney, P.E. RET
finishing.com
Pine Beach, New Jersey
Striving to live "Aloha"

February 11, 2018

Q. Hi Ted, thank you for your prompt answer. This thread has been the most informative...
Do you know if actually Ted's idea had been successfully put into place? Wouldn't the paper filter be quickly deteriorated for continuous use due to the very low pH of the etch bath?
One last question: do you know if using chelating agents such the ones mentioned would work and would it be economically feasible? Are there any new ones you're aware of?

Thank you once again and congratulations on this knowledge exchange platform. Wish there were much more...:-)

Kind regards,

Nuno Loureiro, chemist [returning]
- Peterborough, Cambridgeshire, United Kingdom

February 2018

A. Hi Nuno. If you collect a plastic bottle full of your slurry, I think you'll discover that it settles out in a few hours to a rock hard sludge and a decantate ... but that if you turn the bottle over and back a hundred times or so the 'rock' gradually washes back into a slurry. If your aluminum scale acts as I describe, I think it is possible to continuously filter the solution or, lacking that, to recirculate the decantate to wash the 'rock' back into a slurry for periodic filtration.

Automatic paper filter systems use disposable newsprint which unrolls onto a continuous belt of mesh. So the fact that newspaper isn't particularly acid resistant shouldn't matter -- although the rest of the filter parts would have to hold up to the solution. I haven't tried it.

I am not a chemist and cannot comment on the complexing suggestions offered by Hadi, Ken, and Terry.

Regards,

Ted Mooney, P.E. RET
finishing.com
Pine Beach, New Jersey
Striving to live "Aloha"

February 12, 2018

Thanks Ted, your help was precious! I'm going to study and explore all these ideas. I'll keep you posted :-)
Hopefully with good news...

Kind Regards,

Nuno Loureiro [returning]
- Peterborough, Cambridgeshire, United Kingdom

This public forum has 60,000 threads. If you have a question in mind which seems off topic to this thread, you might prefer to Search the Site

ADD a Q or A to THIS thread START a NEW THREAD View CURRENT TOPICS

Disclaimer: It's not possible to diagnose a finishing problem or the hazards of an operation via these pages. All information presented is for general reference and does not represent a professional opinion nor the policy of an author's employer. The internet is largely anonymous & unvetted; some names may be fictitious and some recommendations may be deliberately harmful.