HPLC for Plating Brighteners
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Msg. #2072 in ** Ask Plater B** Posted on 09/28/91
To: ALL From: KEN ROSENBLUM
Subject: BRIGHTENER ANALYSIS USING HPLC
DOES ANYONE HAVE AN OPINION ON THE PRACTICALITY OF A PLATING JOB
SHOP INVESTING IN HPLC FOR BRIGHTENER ANALYSIS? WE CURRENTLY USE
BRIGHTENERS FOR ZINC CYANIDE, ALKALINE CYANIDE, NICKEL, TRICHROME, COPPER
,SILVER, CAD AND OTHER PLATING BATHS AND ARE OFTEN FRUSTRATED BY TECHNICAL
SUPPORT GIVEN BY MANUFACTURERS AND DISTRIBUTORS. I AM TIRED OF HEARING
SUPPLIERS SAY "WE'VE NEVER SEEN THAT PROBLEM BEFORE" WITH THE FIX ALWAYS
INCLUDING SUBCOMPONENTS OF BRIGHTENERS THAT HAVE TO BE SPECIALLY ORDERED.
ALSO, THE TIME DELAY IN SENDING BATH SAMPLES TO MANUFACTURERS THROUGH
DISTRIBUTORS AND WAITING FOR A RESPONSE AT BEST IS MANY PRODUCTION SHIFTS
AFTER THE PROBLEM IS DISCOVERED. ALMOST ALWAYS, THE PROBLEM HAS RESOLVED
ITSELF BY THE TIME WE EVER GET A RESPONSE.
DOES ANYONE HAVE EXPERIENCE WITH INHOUSE HPLC? IS THIS PRACTICAL?
WOULD THE RESULTS BE MEANINGFUL TO THE PRODUCTION PLATING BATH? I JUST
THINK THAT IF WE COULD ANALYZE BRIGHTENERS INHOUSE WE MIGHT RESOLVE
PROBLEMS FASTER. THANKS IN ADVANCE FOR ANY RESPONSES.
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Msg. #2073 in ** Ask Plater B** Posted on 09/28/91
To: KEN ROSENBLUM From: GARY WOLF
Subject: Reply To 'BRIGHTENER ANALYSIS USING HPLC'
Ken, Howdy!
I run a smaller shop that uses the MacDermid RL 20 brightener and
I have Lea Ronal TinGlo. I also Use MacDermid 8170 Nickel Brightener.
We also have periodic problems and Since I worked for nearly 15 years as a
supplier to the industry I like to think of myself as knowing a little
about the chemistry of the baths. I used to sell you anodes for tin BTW.
Any way I have access to the HPLC at U.of Rochester here and I have used
HPLC to analyze my baths. It can help with the tin in looking at the
depletion oanti oxidizer addition agents. and for looking for contaminants
that affect the wetting agent.
The RL 20 system breaks down into many different elutable constituents
and you would need a really good data set to know what went wrong. The
HPLC is good for nickel because it will show the levels of stress reducing
agents, carrier brightener, and leveler as well as the wetters which can
be depleted at different levels because of changes in tank loadings and
part configuration. It won't do much for chromates because the inorganics
that are important to the bath don't separate real well.
I would not purchase an HPLC as a control instrument. the average scan
tales about 45 minutes and without good background data the results good be
more confusing than traditional tests like HULL Cells. I think you should
consider looking for a local college to work with you. You might get some
real good help from an interested analytical chem prof.
Hey Lets talk more on the shop owner's forum.
Gary Wolf Genesee Valley Metal Finishing
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Msg. #2074 in ** Ask Plater B** Posted on 09/28/91
To: KEN ROSENBLUM From: TED MOONEY
Subject: Reply To 'BRIGHTENER ANALYSIS USING HPLC'
I don't have the hands-on background with HPLC that Gary has. But we
strongly considered it for analysis of an in-house formulated nickel
electroforming bath. And, for that case, it was simply a matter of
economics of whether it could be justified.
But, I worked for suppliers for 11 years, and something you perhaps
should bear in mind is that the proprietary brighteners are the economic
backbone of the whole supply industry. If you think the suppliers are
uncooperative now, wait til you're hot on the trail of their most
treasured secrets. I predict you'll find so much feigned ignorance to
your every question that you'll be ready to kill.
So I think Gary has exactly the right answer: try HPLC at a local
university or independent analytical lab and see how much it really helps
you before investing in a system.
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Msg. #2082 in ** Ask Plater B** Posted on 10/01/91
To: GARY WOLF From: KEN ROSENBLUM
Subject: Reply To 'BRIGHTENER ANALYSIS USING HPLC'
GARY WOLF, THANKS FOR THE RESPONSE. KEN
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Msg. #2083 in ** Ask Plater B** Posted on 10/01/91
To: TED MOONEY From: KEN ROSENBLUM
Subject: Reply To 'BRIGHTENER ANALYSIS USING HPLC'
TED, THANKS FOR THE RESPONSE. SOUNDS LIKE TRYING TO MAKE HPLC USEFUL
WOULD ENTAIL DUPLICATING THE WORK THAT CHEMICAL MANUFACTURERS HAVE BEEN
SPENDING YEARS DOING.
LIKE ALL OF AMERICAN INDUSTRY, WE ARE TRYING TO CONTROL OUR
PROCESSES BY CONTROLLING ALL OF THE VARIABLES. UNFORTUNATELY, PROPRIETARY
CHEMICALS CAN'T BE CONTROLLED VERY WELL IF WE HAVE NO GOOD WAY OF
ANALYZING FOR THEM (READ: ALL OF THEIR CONSTITUENTS). WHILE THIS IS VERY
FRUSTRATING, AT LEAST ALL OF OUR COMPETITORS ARE IN THE SAME BOAT. KEN
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Msg. #2088 in ** Ask Plater B** Posted on 10/02/91
To: KEN ROSENBLUM From: JOHN LOVIE
Subject: Reply To 'BRIGHTENER ANALYSIS USING HPLC'
I worked for some time on control of acid copper brighteners using HPLC.
The problem with HPLC is the methods development. We were trying to
overcome the same problem that you describe - brightener imbalance,
correctly or incorrectly diagnosed, seat of the pants corrections, etc. -
an unsatisfactory situation for both the customer and the vendor. The bath
we chose to look at had four brightener components. We were only able to
develop a method for one. Nevertheless this was an enormous help in
reducing the number of variables.
From what I remember of zinc, the brighteners are easier to analyse and
present in higher concentrations. Nevertheless, the methods will need to
be developed and tested. You can't unfortunately just but an HPLC and
start analysing things. You will need development work from your HPLC
supplier, and he in turn will need you vendor to open the books to him
(under appropriate agreements) to be able to learn what to analyse for.
If you can get this methods development work done, then I believe that
HPLC can be a very valuable addition to plating process control. The
results definitely do have meaning to a production bath. If you'd like to
give me a call on (908)888-3952, we can talk a little more on how to
approach HPLC suppliers and your chemistry vendors to get something
going.
Cheers
John Lovie, ETI
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Msg. #2089 in ** Ask Plater B** Posted on 10/02/91
To: GARY WOLF From: JOHN LOVIE
Subject: Reply To 'BRIGHTENER ANALYSIS USING HPLC'
Gary, I just sent a reply to Ken. Your reply is a good example of the need
for careful interpretation of HPLC data, and of the watch out that it can
generate a lot more data than information. Nevertheless I feel that there
is a place for HPLC for some of the additives in some baths. A 45 minute
scan is not excessive - many analyses take that long, and if you're only
analysing weekly, as many do, who cares? The methods development is key in
determining the usefulness of HPLC.
Cheers
John Lovie, ETI
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Msg. #2090 in ** Ask Plater B** Posted on 10/02/91
To: TED MOONEY From: JOHN LOVIE
Subject: Reply To 'BRIGHTENER ANALYSIS USING HPLC'
Ted, yes. I worked for a supplier for 17 years, and tried to promote HPLC
and other analysis and control techniques from within. I met with a lot of
resistance from within, and it's one of the reasons I'm no longer with a
supplier. I felt I could contribute better from an independent position!
Still, it's possible to do some things, but I echo don't buy until you've
had the method tested by someone - your vendor, the HPLC vendor, or a
third party.
Cheers
John Lovie
ETI
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Msg. #2091 in ** Ask Plater B** Posted on 10/02/91
To: KEN ROSENBLUM From: JOHN LOVIE
Subject: Reply To 'BRIGHTENER ANALYSIS USING HPLC'
Ken, Keep up the pressure on your supplier. He has the option of
disclosing this information to you or to the HPLC vendor under a secrecy
agreement, and he certainly has already done so when asked by an IBM, a
Ford, a GM, etc. The suppliers must start helping US industry do what it
needs to do.
Cheers
John Lovie, ETI
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Msg. #2111 in ** Ask Plater B** Posted on 10/05/91
To: JOHN LOVIE From: TED MOONEY
Subject: Reply To 'BRIGHTENER ANALYSIS USING HPLC'
I don't think Tom was saying that wanting to know the ingredients was an
ego thing. Rather, that folks will always want to "improve" on the
ingredients. He and I have seen some cases where people were confident
that they could make a better brightener than the suppliers.
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Msg. #2116 in ** Ask Plater B** Posted on 10/05/91
To: TED MOONEY From: JOHN LOVIE
Subject: Reply To 'BRIGHTENER ANALYSIS USING HPLC'
I meant pretty much the same thing. Sorry if my meaning was unclear.
Certain TLA (three letter acronym) customers assigned their own part
number, their own specs, and eventually wound up thinking that it was
their product and we were making it for them, rather than our
formulation. They couldn't understand why they didn't have the
formulation. Yet another (phones, this time) ,will tell you to this day
that they formulate the brightener themselves from components (quick fix
additives) and do it better than the supplier. They may be right. The
problem is there's so little objective data on additives that everybody's
working in the dark, but the suppliers like it that way. In the land of
the blind....
Cheers
John
(we should pick this up over a beer at the next branch meeting)
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Msg. #2118 in ** Ask Plater B** Posted on 10/06/91
To: ALL From: KEN ROSENBLUM
Subject: BRIGHTENER ANALYSIS BY HPLC
I'M GLAD TO SEE ALL OF THE DISCUSSION REGARDING BRIGHTENER ANALYSIS. I
TAKE THIS TO MEAN THAT MOST PEOPLE ARE AS FRUSTRATED AS I AM BY THE STATE
OF THE ART OF PLATING BATH ANALYSIS.
IT WOULD BE NICE TO HEAR SOME RESPONSES FROM REPRESENTATIVES OF
THE CHEMICAL MANUFACTURERS; ESPECIALLY THE ONES WE USE SUCH AS M&T;,
MCGEAN-ROHCO, WITCO, GUMM, SANDOZ, ELECTROCHEMICALS, FIDELITY, ENTHONE,
PARKER, HEATBATH, LUSTERON, TECHNIC, LEA RONEL, MACDERMID, ETC.
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Msg. #2119 in ** Ask Plater B** Posted on 10/06/91
To: KEN ROSENBLUM From: JOHN LOVIE
Subject: Reply To 'BRIGHTENER ANALYSIS BY HPLC'
Ken, my first exposure to plating was a summer job in a job shop back in
England over 20 years ago while I was going through school. I was amazed
at the lack of science in plating, to the extent that I joined Udylite
after graduating with a vow to help bring plating into the 20th century.
After 17 frustrating years with a supplier, I'm out on my own and still
trying! There's still along way to go, but it is imperative that we make
progress because otherwise plating, along with other parts of industry
that refuse to change, will simply die.
Cheers
John Lovie
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