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-----EN composites for small scale business use
August 18, 2008
I am a gunsmith and would like to offer EN composite coatings. I asked a question on here a few years ago about codepositing PTFE with EN. I asked whether PTFE could be added to an agitated EN bath, I was told it was a patented process, it was not nearly as easy as just agitating an EN bath and adding the PTFE and that I should purchase the process from one of the patent holders.
Recently I have found that a company is supplying nickel boron kits to mostly individuals and small businesses, I'm purposely not mentioning their name as their name has nothing to do with my questions. The kit they sell is basically their EN kit plus the boron nitride and a small air pump for agitation.
My questions are:
Can this type of process really produce a quality nickel boron coating?
What size BN particles would be ideal if I wanted to experiment on my own?
If this can be done with BN what are the reasons I could not do the same but substitute the BN for PTFE particles?
When it's said to purchase a process what's exactly involved with that? I'm assuming it's not as simple as buying the chemicals with instructions from a company that owns a process.
I am obviously a plating novice, I have been practicing plating EN on scrap steel before I plate for a paying customer. I have the time to learn and experiment, is there anyway for a small part time business owner to apply these composites or am I wasting my time and EN bath? If it is a waste of time can someone explain why? I by no means questioning the wisdom of the people on this forum, it's obvious the members here are the tops in the field, I just hate not knowing why I can't do something.
gunsmith - Stuart, Florida, United States
August 19, 2008
Hi, Brian. Your question is a long one; forgive me if the answer is even longer!
We'll sometimes get university researchers saying they need to nickel plate something for a fuel cell experiment, and they'll be asking how much of this to add to how much of that. We'll tell them they can buy a pre-made nickel plating solution or send the component to a plating shop if they wish, and sometimes they'll say "Oh?" -- many folks saw a plating experiment in a beaker in high school science, and assume that the experiment they saw represents the universe and the state of the art.
So, sometimes our first job is just to let people know that plating jobshop services are readily available if they prefer. For 90 percent of the people 90 percent of the time, this is the right answer. Even General Electric and General Motors have decided to stop in-house plating.
That doesn't mean you can't do it yourself, just that it's usually not the best answer for a small business. Another issue is that a public forum on the internet is a gigantic one-room schoolhouse where 2nd-graders and 2nd-year post docs are equally liable to read a given posting. Hobbyists keep posting that we spend too much bandwidth on safety and environmental aspects, and regulations -- but folks need to know that in industry people must receive annual hands-on training, and they can't start working with regulated hazardous chemicals without training.
That said, you can send your parts out for electroless nickel plating with teflon impregnation, or you can buy that patented electroless nickel plating process with teflon particles and do it yourself, or you can develop your own electroless nickel with teflon process.
I see no reason that a site focusing on hobby plating would necessarily have to market a low quality plating solution, so it is certainly possible that you can get high quality plating from this. The general rule is obvious: the more corners you cut, the lower the ultimate quality, and the fewer you cut, the better.
Sure you can experiment with different size teflon particles, different aeration rates, maybe a thixotropic agent. Have fun.
Regards,
Ted Mooney, P.E.
Striving to live Aloha
finishing.com - Pine Beach, New Jersey
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First of two simultaneous responses -- August 20, 2008
First, the teflon particles develop a scum with time and use and will not codeposit in the EN. Once they settle out, they do not want to come back into the suspension. Also, it takes a special wetting agent for the best results.
The BN is a bit simpler, but the wetting agent is very important here also.
The deposition of BN works by plating most of the tiny particles out first. The larger ones just are not trapped as easily in the nickel matrix. As the BN gets larger and larger, it basically does not co deposit. Then, what % of the EN needs to be BN for the ideal use, as well as what size is optimum.
Then, you need a mini lab to control the EN and the additives. You need a metallurgical lab to determine if the BN is plating out uniformly and in what %.
Next, you have to register as a haz waste generator and the reporting is a pain. Leave the properly filled out label off of a can of waste and you are looking at a minimum of $500 fine. You have to please the city, county, state, national and sometimes regional or area environmental people. Note that they frequently do not agree in what is required.
Disposal costs for waste is about $500 per drum. Your rinse water may be a haz waste. You have to regularly prove that it is not. An inspector may decide that your superior rinse methods is really an attempt at dilution to meet specs, which is against the law.
So, do you really want to buy material from a small vendor with unknown quality and consistency and little if any tech service? One vendor gave information that could cost thousands in fines. Guess what, the transportation of haz waste is highly regulated, with lots of paperwork.
Any body can report you and you will be inspected, even if you are tiny and have not broken any laws. They will take up a half day of your time checking the facility and your records.
There is no exclusion for hobby shop or tiny generators.
It is your business and your money. Do what you need to do.
- Navarre, Florida
Second of two simultaneous responses -- August 20, 2008
'"Oh?" -- because many folks saw a plating experiment in a beaker in high school science, and assume that the experiment they saw represents the universe and the state of the art.'
I run into it daily in my day job as an industrial electrician. "I put a new receptacle in my garage" means they are capable of installing a 1200A 480V 3 phase service. I fully understand (mostly from reading here) that the plating industry is a very wide and complicated industry, knew I should have paid more attention in chemistry class in high school, but hey, who needs chemistry, right?
Not trying to insult anyone, but a hobbyist who complains about spending too much time on safety should not be here and should not be playing with any chemical stronger than dish washing detergent. Safety is THE most important thing, A ruined EN bath may cost me a few bucks to replace, a safety mistake can obviously cause a lot more damage to the hobbyist or worse yet, innocent bystanders, family ETC. Please keep pushing safety.
I see no reason that a site focusing on hobby plating would necessarily have to market a low quality plating solution, so it is certainly possible that you can get high quality plating from this. The general rule should be obvious that the more corners you cut, the lower the ultimate quality, and the fewer you cut, the better.
I believe their EN solution is fine and I also believe the boron that comes with the kit is probably fine, what I don't know is will an air pump keep the boron properly suspended so a quality plating can be obtained.
Are you aware of any suppliers that sell a nickel bath that's meant to be used with PTFE or boron particles? Can you explain what is involved with purchasing a process? In other words, does buying a process involve buying all of the equipment from the company selling the process?
Is it as simple as buying the bath, the particle you want to co deposit and paying a licensing fee and then they give you documentation on how to use their process?
The reason I need to plate in house is due to what I am plating. If I sent the firearms out to be plated the plating company would have to hold a federal firearms license and would have to also pay their SOT which would allow them to have class three firearms (automatic weapons, short barreled shotguns ETC) in their possession. I have a decent amount of law enforcement work lined up, I would not feel comfortable sending these weapons to another company, I loose all control over turn around time ETC. There are also very few plating companies that have the required licensing or want to deal with firearms.
- Stuart, Florida, USA
September 10, 2008
I've made the general point that the more corners you cut, the more problematic the plating quality. But if you are patient and resourceful, yes, you can probably keep particles suspended with an inexpensive air pump -- I really can't comment further on that because I haven't tried it.
Usually, but not always, there is a separation between who sells plating processes and who sells plating equipment. You probably can get a packaged electroless nickel solution with the particles from a major supplier, but there might be a non-disclosure and non-compete agreement involved. They would offer fairly complete instruction and there might be three or four chemical components rather than two because you are generally trying to keep a solution working as long as possible by replenishing whatever gets exhausted.
Indeed few shops can handle firearms, Brian. Good luck.
Regarding people thinking they are platers or electricians, yes, I am guilty of installing outlets myself. But I see that in my state it takes 8000 hours of OJT, and 686 hours of classroom attendance, and passing a test to become a master electrician. So, yes, I do realize that I'm not 1% of the way towards being able to call myself an electrician 🙂
Reminds me of an episode of "The Middle" where the parents make their teenage son spend half a Saturday studying his biology book and after doing it he complains: "I'm practically a doctor" 🙂
Regards,
Ted Mooney, P.E.
Striving to live Aloha
finishing.com - Pine Beach, New Jersey
Need quick confidential answers? $25
Need project assistance? $100/hr.
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