Letter 29294

Which is better: 18/8 or 18/10 stainless steel?  

note: entries are not all in chronological order as we have grouped together postings on related themes.

++++ Which metal is more durable: 18/10 or 18/8 stainless steel? I am considering purchasing some flatware that is 18/8 stainless, and wonder how strong it will be. Thanks, H Dawson homemaker - Dallas, Texas ++++ Previously on another Internet forum: Question I would like to know about stainless steel , specifically which is stronger and will last longer 18/10 or 18/8. which would make a heavier weight flatware ? I cant find these answers anywhere. thank you so much.

Answer
Hello Shelly! Let me start with a few basics, OK? The 18/8 and 18/10 designations are older terms, and refer to the amount of chromium and nickel alloyed with the iron, to comprise the stainless steel. The 18/8 name has been pretty much replaced, in the States at least, by several other designations. 301 stainless steel has 16-18% Cr, and 6-8% Ni 302 stainless steel has 17-19% Cr, and 8-10% Ni 304 stainless steel has 18-20% Cr, and 8-10.5% Ni That may explain your difficulty in finding information on these alloys. Similarly, 18/10 is usually referred to as 316 stainless steel, with 16-18% Cr, 10-14% Ni, and also 2-3% molybdenum, which greatly increases the resistance to pitting corrosion in seawater. Good stuff, that moly.

Now the mechanical properties these 300 series stainless steels are all the same! In the annealed condition, they are all listed at 75 ksi tensile strength, 30 ksi yield strength. The slight difference in Cr and Ni isn't enough to cause a difference in the strength by themselves. These alloys can be made harder, however, by cold working, i.e. rolling or drawing through a die or extruding through a die or some other such process which will deform the metal, while it is at most a few hundred degrees F. Here, too, the mechanical properties are the same: half-hard stock, for example, has 150 ksi tensile, 110 ksi yield strength, no matter if it is 301, 302, 304, 316, etc.

The difference is in the corrosion resistance (which I assume you're not interested in, since all will be fine for flatware) and in the ductility. A lower alloyed 301 has more ductility when work hardened than the higher alloyed 316. So after you stamp out your quarter hard sheet into forks, you can bend one of the tines more often, or farther, if it is of 301 rather than if it is made of 304 or 316, before it will crack. The weight of the flatware will depend on geometry, since the densities of the stainless steel grades are identical, for practical purposes. Iron, chromium, and nickel all weigh about the same. A splendid source of information on stainless steels is the Nickel Development Institute, at www.nidi.org, which offers a lot of FREE literature they are glad to send. And please don't hesitate to ask here again! (Gosh, I hope I answered your question in all this rambling!) Take care!

Lee Gearhart metallurgist East Aurora, NY

Very informative answer. Now I'm wondering about 18/0. I've seen a number of flatware sets listed as such. Does the 0 indicate lower quality, less corrosion protection, what not?

Amanda G
- Jetmore, Kansas

• 18/0 would mean 18 percent chromium and 0 percent nickel
• 18/8 indicates 18 percent chromium & 8 percent nickel
• 18/10 indicates 18 percent chromium & 10 percent nickel.

Because nickel costs about $17 per pound, flatware which contains none would be less expensive than flatware which contains 8 or 10 percent nickel.

While 18/0 is not necessarily unsatisfactory, it is not as corrosion resistant.

Ted Mooney, P.E.  finishing.com Brick, New Jersey

I have found a number of third-party sources that verify the superiority of 316 steel, versus lower grades of stainless steel on the market such as 304 and 18/8.

Here is some very interesting data on 316 steel, according to the Sandmeyer Steel Company:
http://www.sandmeyersteel.com/316-316L.html

Here is a quote from this page:

316 steel is used in the "manufacture and handling of certain food and pharmaceutical products where the molybdenum-containing stainless steels are often required in order to minimize metallic contamination."


Here is a website where I found that Pharmaceutical companies use 316 steel for purposes of high purity in their products:
http://www.arcmachines.com/appPages/weldspec02.html

Here is a quote from this page:

"The Baseline series of PHARMACEUTICAL ENGINEERING GUIDES was developed by ISPE in cooperation with the FDA to establish a baseline approach to new and renovated facility design, construction commissioning and qualification. . . . discusses material selection for piping systems and recommends type 316L as the preferred steel for a High Purity Water generation and distribution system. "

I also have data from multiple Allegheny Ludlum metallurgical studies that demonstrates the differences between 304 steel and 316 steel.

Joseph Matthew Gleason
- Anna, Texas

OK, back to the original question – what grade of stainless steel should I use for cooking utensils?

I work for a company that fabricates carbon steel and stainless steel piping systems for food processing plants, water treatment plants and industrial users. My job is to help with selecting the best (most cost-effective) materials for our customer's specific applications.

18-8 stainless steel – now most often referred to as 304 or UNS S30400. – Good, general purpose stainless steel. Used for some drinking water plants, petrochemical plants, lots of structural uses. If you want to make transit bus handrails, use 304. It's resistant to most chemicals, and won't pit or corrode from people's sweaty hands. Good for cooking utensils, but not as goods as 316.

18-10 stainless steel - now most often referred to as 302 or UNS S30200. About the same for food use as 18-8. Lots of good, inexpensive cookware is made with this alloy.

18-10MO - now most often referred to as 316 or UNS S31600. This is the alloy of choice for food processing equipment and applications requiring excellent corrosion resistance to most chemicals. 316 has 18% chrome, 10% nickel and 3% molybdenum. The molybdenum has a major effect on resisting acidic and chloride corrosion. Lots of foods are acidic – tomato sauce is one that will pit 304 but not 316. Just about everything you cook has salt in it, and salt (especially sea salt) has high chloride levels.

However, most if this is irrelevant. Unless you're running a meat packing plant next to the ocean (and they all use 316), any of these grades of stainless will work just fine.

How to destroy stainless steel cookware:

> Use with plain steel items. In our plant, we carefully segregate stainless steel from plain carbon steel. All of our shelves are coated with plastic so the stainless steel never touches carbon steel. Having both types of steel in contact may cause the stainless steel to develop surface rust. Using stainless steel spatulas on cast iron frypans may cause rust marks to develop on the spatula. Don't use plain steel wool to clean your stainless steel pots – use a ScotchBrite pad or stainless steel wool.

> Let them soak for hours. Leaving your spaghetti sauce pot in the sink full of tomato-ey water is the perfect way to start pitting. Stagnant acidic water is the worst thing you can do. When we design tanks for food processing plants, we take special care to make sure the tanks can completely drain and there are no crevices to collect stagnant water.

Bottom line, any good-quality 18-8, 18-10, 302, 304 or 316 stainless cooking utensils will be head and shoulders beyond most of the other available materials. Teflon-coated pots chip and flake, glass breaks and discolours, copper tarnishes and often contains lead, strong detergents dissolve aluminum.

As for the SaladMaster demo, it's a trick. When the nice SaladMaster salespeople boil water in your pots and pans, you're comparing the results against the brand new, never-been-used SaladMaster pots they brought with and unwrapped in front of you. Your pots and pans have millions of microscopic surface cracks that may trap equally microscopic food particles. That's what you taste – the boiling water and baking soda leaches out some of the food particles, causing the yucky taste. The brand new SaladMaster pots have never been used, so no food in THEIR microscopic cracks, so no taste.

Sheldon Jaffe
- Langley, B.C., Canada

I have a new set of flatware that is marked "stainless china". Can you tell me about this flatware and possibly why it tarnishes every time I put it in the dishwasher?? Now my other flatware and utensils are tarnishing too. I've had the dishwasher checked and cleaned it out with vinegar washes several times. Please help!

Linda Knepp
housewife - State College, Pennsylvania

The "Stainless China" flatware is tarnishing each time you put it in the dishwasher because it was MADE in China (it's not "china" in the ceramic-plate sense). The stainless indication means that it has a higher level of chromium than standard steel, but most likely a low (if any) nickel content. You want to buy something that says 18/10 or 18/8 right on the handle.
Eric

Eric Larson
- Simi Valley, California

As I read through all the answers I got more confused! Which is the better flatware? Is more nickel better? heavier? pricier? I need high quality, pit and corrosion resistant, heavy flatware in my hand. What is the very best? Which should I buy if price is not a consideration only quality,durability and beautiful finish are the criteria? Help! I hate cheap flatware so much I can't eat with it, it literally hurts my hand!

Gail Robinson
buyer - Willimantic, Connecticut

Hi, Gail. Please read the replies slowly and carefully and ask for clarification on specific points you didn't understand. Starting over is what causes the rambling, repetitive confusion you complain of :-)    As previously noted, all stainless is about the same density (weight) and strength. More nickel is better, more corrosion resistant, and more expensive. 316 (sometimes called 18/10) stainless steel is best, and 304 (sometimes called18/8) is almost as good. But I don't think you can really select flatware on this basis, because there is more to the process of manufacturing good stainless steel than just the alloy composition. I think you can go only by the reputation of the maker and their guarantees. Although I am a proponent of "Buy American", I believe that no stainless flatware is made in the USA. It's almost all made in China today, and I have zero confidence in it or the companies selling it. If anybody knows of American-made place service, please pipe in. I have no personal experience with Japanese flatware, but at least Japanese companies don't seem to practice "meatball whoring" like so many American companies do today (letting any schlock outfit put their company's meatball/logo on a product in exchange for a licensing fee). Based on what I can see, their lifetime guarantee, and customer reviews, my personal guess as to the best flatware you can buy today is Yamazaki. If anyone has personal experience with it, please chime in; meanwhile we've linked to reviews on Amazon where all three customers rated it "5-star". Good luck. Ted Mooney finishing.com Brick, New Jersey May 5, 2008 This is very helpful and informative reading. Thanks everyone. I am replacing my Reed & Barton 18/10 flatware after 11 years due to staining and pitting. Nothing last forever. And it look as though the standard is still 18/10 (316). Considering Oneida or Yamazaki... Maureen Moylan - Northridge, California January 31, 2009 I just bought a set of Yamazaki and all I can say is that I think it is very important to have flatware that feels good in the hand, has a good weight and looks beautiful...and this brand delivers on all counts. It is marked 18/8 and "made in China", and while I don't know how it will wear, my initial impression is that it is well designed, well made, and that the company pays attention to quality. No small thing these days! Rhonda Shaw - Chappaqua, New York

i would like to know if lead is ever used in making flatware. I am concerned because of China's deceptive use of lead in products.

Barbara McBroom
- Hillside, Illinois

Hi, Barbara. I can't see any reason a manufacturer would put lead into a stainless steel product. However, if you were talking silver plated flatware, there probably are some machinability advantages to making it from leaded brass.

That doesn't mean I personally believe there will be lead in a piece of silverplate, but based on the news, I'm certainly not making any promise on behalf of a Chinese manufacturer.

Regards,

Ted Mooney finishing.com Brick, New Jersey

Can you tell me if there is any aluminum in 18/8 stainless?

Thank you,

bjh

Barbara Hammar
- Corvallis, Oregon

Hi, Barbara. No, there is no aluminum in 18/8 stainless.

Regards,

Ted Mooney finishing.com Brick, New Jersey

I am about to buy a very very large quantity of stainless steel tableware for a huge dining facility I will be moving my current facility to. We serve meals to over a thousand people 3 times a day and the tableware gets a lot of use. What I have been using is 18/10, and we have specifically gotten this because it is very durable. I am trying to save money and so I am considering buying 18/8 instead. I guess I wanted some opinion on whether I should save the money buying a lower grade, or save money by having a more durable 18/10 which lasts longer. But my question is, is it really worth the difference, and based on your experience with the metals, what do you think would work better for me? Also, is 18/8 magnetic like 18/10 is.

Thank you!

Rosemary Johnson
buyer - Tampa, Florida

Hi, Rosemary. 18/8 is not magnetic and neither is 18/10. 18/10 is better and more expensive but I think it's unlikely that a quality brand of 18/8 would be unsatisfactory.

Regards,

Ted Mooney finishing.com Brick, New Jersey

I have an 18/8 stainless steel sports bottle that is magnetic as well. If 18/8 is not supposed to be magnetic, what would cause it to be so?

Patti Douglas
buyer - Portland, Oregon

Hi, Patti. Cold working during manufacture can leave 18/8 with a very slight magnetic attraction. But if it's significantly magnetic, like regular steel is, I'd say it is not 18/8.

Regards,

Ted Mooney finishing.com Brick, New Jersey

HI..good info here. I am looking at purchasing a new set of pots and pans..the description says 18/10 lids
ok.what are the pots made from, or are they saying lids and not addressing pots, because of the copper bottoms?
at a loss...

J FRED MUGGS
- Meadville, Mississippi

Hi, J Fred Muggs. Your parents certainly had a very weird sense of humor, trying to make a monkey out of you. My sympathies!

If the manufacturer doesn't claim 18/10 I think it would be a leap of faith to expect it.

Regards,

Ted Mooney finishing.com Brick, New Jersey

Great to see all of this chat on Stainless. I'd like to add one factor - the higher nickel content allow a much brighter and whiter shine. It's apparent in cookware as well. If you use 18/0 which I think is also 201 (not sure) in flatware and cookware it dulls quickly over time. It's still food safe just not as nice to look at after a few uses.

Bradley Smith
- Sacramento, California

The debate between 304 and 316 on leaching metal toxins is fascinating. I understand they are both inert.
I am making Kombucha tea, which is a highly acidic fermented tea. Would 304 or 316 be more suited, for continuous repeated home use. Better than glass even? The culture would ferment for up to 30 days in the vessel in black tea and sugar. Any help would be great don't want to make family sick.

chad york
- puyallup, Washington

Hi, Chad. Type 304 and 316 stainless are quite similar, but type 316 is more corrosion resistant. I think that is all that could be said short of retaining a laboratory to ferment the mixture for 30 days and then testing for dissolved metals.

But glass is completely inert to food products.

Regards,

Ted Mooney finishing.com Brick, New Jersey

We need to replace a 28-yr old kitchen sink. Which would be more durable and best:

"20 gauge, Type 304 Series stainless steel w/satin finish 18/10 chrome-nickel content"
or
"18 gauge, 18/10 stainless steel"

We've always though the lower gauge was better, but the Type 304 is a new wrinkle since we bought last.

Thank you.

Bobbie Cavano
consumer/buyer - Rome, New York

Hi, Bobbie. 18 gauge is heavier than 20 gauge. Type 304 and 18/10 are essentially the same thing. The wording "type 304" is just a little more exacting about the composition than the more generic 18 percent chrome 10 percent nickel.

Regards,

Ted Mooney finishing.com Brick, New Jersey

Thank you for taking the time to respond.

Bobbie Cavano
consumer/buyer - Rome, New York   sp  

I was recently in India and a lot of the factories are using 14/1 and 14/04 stainless instead of 18/10. The price is reduced and the factories are saying that products manufactured from 14/1 and 14/04 pass all tests for corrosion and rust. I would like to know more about this type of stainless steel, the strength and what defects can we expect to encounter if we use this material to manufacture giftware products. Thanks Diane Stevens - Eatontown, New Jersey June 16, 2009 Hi, I also have the same question as Diane S. asked -- could you expound on the qualities of 14/1 stainless and if it is sub par from 18/10 for food grade usage? Thanks! Andrea Andrea Thien - santa barbara, ca June 18, 2009 Hi, Andrea. I didn't comment because I've never heard of it. Sorry. Does anyone know the composition or anything else about it beyond that they call it "14/1" ? Thanks. Regards, Ted Mooney finishing.com Brick, New Jersey