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Letter 29294
Which is better: 18/8 or 18/10 stainless
steel?
note: entries are not all in chronological
order as we have grouped together postings on related
themes.
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Which metal is more durable: 18/10 or 18/8 stainless
steel? I am considering purchasing some flatware that is
18/8 stainless, and wonder how strong it will be.
Thanks,
H Dawson
homemaker - Dallas, Texas
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Previously on another Internet forum:
Question
I would like to know about stainless steel , specifically
which is stronger and will last longer 18/10 or 18/8. which
would make a heavier weight flatware ? I cant find these
answers anywhere. thank you so much.
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Answer
Hello Shelly! Let me start with a few basics, OK? The 18/8 and 18/10
designations are older terms, and refer to the amount of chromium and
nickel alloyed with the iron, to comprise the stainless steel. The
18/8 name has been pretty much replaced, in the States at least, by
several other designations. 301 stainless steel has 16-18% Cr, and
6-8% Ni 302 stainless steel has 17-19% Cr, and 8-10% Ni 304 stainless
steel has 18-20% Cr, and 8-10.5% Ni That may explain your difficulty
in finding information on these alloys. Similarly, 18/10 is usually
referred to as 316 stainless steel, with 16-18% Cr, 10-14% Ni, and
also 2-3% molybdenum, which greatly increases the resistance to
pitting corrosion in seawater. Good stuff, that moly.
Now the mechanical properties these 300 series stainless steels
are all the same! In the annealed condition, they are all listed at
75 ksi tensile strength, 30 ksi yield strength. The slight difference
in Cr and Ni isn't enough to cause a difference in the strength by
themselves. These alloys can be made harder, however, by cold
working, i.e. rolling or drawing through a die or extruding through a
die or some other such process which will deform the metal, while it
is at most a few hundred degrees F. Here, too, the mechanical
properties are the same: half-hard stock, for example, has 150 ksi
tensile, 110 ksi yield strength, no matter if it is 301, 302, 304,
316, etc.
The difference is in the corrosion resistance (which I assume
you're not interested in, since all will be fine for flatware) and in
the ductility. A lower alloyed 301 has more ductility when work
hardened than the higher alloyed 316. So after you stamp out your
quarter hard sheet into forks, you can bend one of the tines more
often, or farther, if it is of 301 rather than if it is made of 304
or 316, before it will crack. The weight of the flatware will depend
on geometry, since the densities of the stainless steel grades are
identical, for practical purposes. Iron, chromium, and nickel all
weigh about the same. A splendid source of information on stainless
steels is the Nickel Development Institute, at www.nidi.org, which
offers a lot of FREE literature they are glad to send. And please
don't hesitate to ask here again! (Gosh, I hope I answered your
question in all this rambling!) Take care!
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Lee Gearhart
metallurgist
East Aurora, NY
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February 8, 2006
Very informative answer. Now I'm wondering about 18/0. I've seen a
number of flatware sets listed as such. Does the 0 indicate lower
quality, less corrosion protection, what not?
Amanda G
- Jetmore, Kansas
December 13, 2006
- 18/0 would mean 18 percent chromium and 0 percent nickel
- 18/8 indicates 18 percent chromium & 8 percent nickel
- 18/10 indicates 18 percent chromium & 10 percent nickel.
Because nickel costs about $17 per pound, flatware which contains
none would be less expensive than flatware which contains 8 or 10
percent nickel.
While 18/0 is not necessarily unsatisfactory, it is not as
corrosion resistant.
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Ted Mooney, P.E.
finishing.com
Brick, New Jersey
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December 12, 2006
Is any grade better for one's health than
another? I'm particularly interested in stainless steel
cooking ware.
Clarissa
D
Social Worker - New Mexico
January 29,
2007
Now that I understand about 18/8 and
18/10 - what about flatware that doesn't bend?
Laurie
B
- Wellsville, Utah
Hi, Clarissa. Sorry I have no answer
except that all of these stainless steels are considered
safe, and it seems to me that what your pot is made of is
relatively inconsequential to your health compared to what
is in the pot :-)
Hello, Laurie. That has much more to do
with the dimensions (and consequently the weight) than the
type of material. In this context the resistance to
permanent bending is proportional to the second power of the
thickness. As a slight simplification, flatware that is 40
percent thicker will be 40 percent heavier and twice as
strong. So flatware, like produce, should be "heavy in the
hand".
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Ted Mooney
finishing.com
Brick, New Jersey |
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February 1, 2007
Is it true that type 304 surgical stainless steel
cookware will react on food while 316L will not? They said
this kind of stainless steel (316L) is what surgeons use for
hip, knee replacement and others.
I attended a cookware demonstration where they boiled
water on each different cookware (aluminum, copper,
stainless steel and 316L stainless steel) and put a teaspoon
of baking soda and all the cookware has a yucky taste
including the regular stainless steel except for the 316L,
no reaction at all, why is that?
I've been surfing the internet, couldn't find the answer.
Gabriel D
amateur - Dallas, Texas
February 12, 2007
I also have the same question. A lot of waterless
cookwares are using 304 stainless steel and only SaladMaster
is using 316L. Is 316L really a lot better than 304? I have
heard that 304 has pores when heat up, but not 316L. Is it
true?
Elena Au
- Irvine, California
Gabriel,
The demo you saw was no doubt carefully configured to show
316L in the best light. Still, 316L is more corrosion
resistant, although probably no "safer", than the other
stainless steels mentioned on this page.
Elena,
I doubt the "pores" theory, Elena, but 316L is a very good
grade of stainless steel. It means type 316 (sometimes
called 18/10) "L"ow carbon.
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Ted Mooney
finishing.com
Brick, New Jersey |
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March 20, 2007
I have found a number of third-party sources that verify the
superiority of 316 steel, versus lower grades of stainless steel on
the market such as 304 and 18/8.
Here is some very interesting data on 316 steel, according to the
Sandmeyer Steel Company:
http://www.sandmeyersteel.com/316-316L.html
Here is a quote from this page:
316 steel is used in the "manufacture and handling of certain food
and pharmaceutical products where the molybdenum-containing stainless
steels are often required in order to minimize metallic
contamination."
Here is a website where I found that Pharmaceutical companies use 316
steel for purposes of high purity in their products:
http://www.arcmachines.com/appPages/weldspec02.html
Here is a quote from this page:
"The Baseline series of PHARMACEUTICAL ENGINEERING GUIDES was
developed by ISPE in cooperation with the FDA to establish a baseline
approach to new and renovated facility design, construction
commissioning and qualification. . . . discusses material selection
for piping systems and recommends type 316L as the preferred steel
for a High Purity Water generation and distribution system. "
I also have data from multiple Allegheny Ludlum metallurgical studies
that demonstrates the differences between 304 steel and 316 steel.
Joseph Matthew Gleason
- Anna, Texas
November 16, 2008
OK, back to the original question – what grade of stainless steel
should I use for cooking utensils?
I work for a company that fabricates carbon steel and stainless steel
piping systems for food processing plants, water treatment plants and
industrial users. My job is to help with selecting the best (most
cost-effective) materials for our customer's specific
applications.
18-8 stainless steel – now most often referred to as 304 or UNS
S30400. – Good, general purpose stainless steel. Used for some
drinking water plants, petrochemical plants, lots of structural uses.
If you want to make transit bus handrails, use 304. It's resistant to
most chemicals, and won't pit or corrode from people's sweaty hands.
Good for cooking utensils, but not as goods as 316.
18-10 stainless steel - now most often referred to as 302 or UNS
S30200. About the same for food use as 18-8. Lots of good,
inexpensive cookware is made with this alloy.
18-10MO - now most often referred to as 316 or UNS S31600. This is
the alloy of choice for food processing equipment and applications
requiring excellent corrosion resistance to most chemicals. 316 has
18% chrome, 10% nickel and 3% molybdenum. The molybdenum has a major
effect on resisting acidic and chloride corrosion. Lots of foods are
acidic – tomato sauce is one that will pit 304 but not 316. Just
about everything you cook has salt in it, and salt (especially sea
salt) has high chloride levels.
However, most if this is irrelevant. Unless you're running a meat
packing plant next to the ocean (and they all use 316), any of these
grades of stainless will work just fine.
How to destroy stainless steel cookware:
> Use with plain steel items. In our plant, we carefully segregate
stainless steel from plain carbon steel. All of our shelves are
coated with plastic so the stainless steel never touches carbon
steel. Having both types of steel in contact may cause the stainless
steel to develop surface rust. Using stainless steel spatulas on cast
iron frypans may cause rust marks to develop on the spatula. Don't
use plain steel wool to clean your stainless steel pots – use a
ScotchBrite pad or stainless steel wool.
> Let them soak for hours. Leaving your spaghetti sauce pot in the
sink full of tomato-ey water is the perfect way to start pitting.
Stagnant acidic water is the worst thing you can do. When we design
tanks for food processing plants, we take special care to make sure
the tanks can completely drain and there are no crevices to collect
stagnant water.
Bottom line, any good-quality 18-8, 18-10, 302, 304 or 316 stainless
cooking utensils will be head and shoulders beyond most of the other
available materials. Teflon-coated pots chip and flake, glass breaks
and discolours, copper tarnishes and often contains lead, strong
detergents dissolve aluminum.
As for the SaladMaster demo, it's a trick. When the nice SaladMaster
salespeople boil water in your pots and pans, you're comparing the
results against the brand new, never-been-used SaladMaster pots they
brought with and unwrapped in front of you. Your pots and pans have
millions of microscopic surface cracks that may trap equally
microscopic food particles. That's what you taste – the boiling water
and baking soda leaches out some of the food particles, causing the
yucky taste. The brand new SaladMaster pots have never been used, so
no food in THEIR microscopic cracks, so no taste.
Sheldon Jaffe
- Langley, B.C., Canada
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March 30, 2007
My son struggles with metal toxins, and I
am at a loss as to which brand of flatware would be the
least toxin for him. He is now in a treatment program to
detoxify his body of metal toxins, and I don't want to put
toxins back into his system. I have read this and that about
316 steel etc, but I am still unsure as to what flatware to
get. Please help by sharing a brand(s)of non-toxin quality
flatware. Thanks so much!
Deborah Jan
Evgenikos
- Placerville, California
April 10, 2007
In answer To:
"My son struggles with metal toxins . . ."
Sterling silver would be your best choice,as there is no
documented cases of allergies or toxic effects by silver.
You may not be able to use a commercial polish to keep it
clean looking.
Russ
Goodrich
- Santa Clara, California
Ed. note: If unable to use commercial
silver polish, then see letter 4785 for removing tarnish from silver with baking
soda.
September 17, 2007
re:
"Sterling silver would be your
best choice,as there is no documented cases of allergies or
toxic effects by silver. You may not be able to use a
commercial polish to keep it clean looking".
Can anyone tell me why there is no documented cases of
allergies to this, when there is apparently nickel in
sterling or most sterlings? I may have misunderstood though.
Just wondering as I have a bad allergy to nickel.Seems the
only cookware I do not have a reaction to is a 316L
type.What should I use for flatware?
Linda
Fischer
- Pt Alberni, B.C., Canada
September 19,
2007
I don't think that that is accurate,
Linda. The usual alloying material in sterling silver is
copper, and silverplate or silver would probably be the
least allergenic.
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Ted Mooney
finishing.com
Brick, New Jersey |
May 20, 2008
In answer To:
"My son struggles with metal toxins . . ."
The safest metal for your son to use would be
titanium.
Titanium forms an oxide layer that is extremely inert and
non-reactive. This is the reason titanium is one of the most
commonly used metals for surgical implants.
Camping stores (such as REI) sell titanium forks and
spoons.
Keith
Savage
- Austin, Texas
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July 17, 2007
I have a new set of flatware that is marked "stainless china". Can
you tell me about this flatware and possibly why it tarnishes every
time I put it in the dishwasher?? Now my other flatware and utensils
are tarnishing too. I've had the dishwasher checked and cleaned it
out with vinegar washes several times. Please help!
Linda Knepp
housewife - State College, Pennsylvania
July 26, 2007
The "Stainless China" flatware is tarnishing each time you put it
in the dishwasher because it was MADE in China (it's not "china" in
the ceramic-plate sense). The stainless indication means that it has
a higher level of chromium than standard steel, but most likely a low
(if any) nickel content. You want to buy something that says 18/10 or
18/8 right on the handle.
Eric
Eric Larson
- Simi Valley, California
January 1, 2008
As I read through all the answers I got more confused! Which is
the better flatware? Is more nickel better? heavier? pricier? I need
high quality, pit and corrosion resistant, heavy flatware in my hand.
What is the very best? Which should I buy if price is not a
consideration only quality,durability and beautiful finish are the
criteria? Help! I hate cheap flatware so much I can't eat with it, it
literally hurts my hand!
Gail Robinson
buyer - Willimantic, Connecticut
January 11, 2008
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Hi, Gail. Please read the replies slowly and carefully
and ask for clarification on specific points you didn't
understand. Starting over is what causes the rambling,
repetitive confusion you complain of :-)
As previously noted, all stainless is about the same
density (weight) and strength. More nickel is better, more
corrosion resistant, and more expensive. 316 (sometimes
called 18/10) stainless steel is best, and 304 (sometimes
called18/8) is almost as good. But I don't think you can
really select flatware on this basis, because there is more
to the process of manufacturing good stainless steel than
just the alloy composition. I think you can go only by the
reputation of the maker and their guarantees.
Although I am a proponent of "Buy American", I believe
that no stainless flatware is made in the USA. It's almost
all made in China today, and I have zero confidence in it or
the companies selling it. If anybody knows of American-made
place service, please pipe in.
I have no personal experience with Japanese flatware, but
at least Japanese companies don't seem to practice "meatball
whoring" like so many American companies do today (letting
any schlock outfit put their company's meatball/logo on a
product in exchange for a licensing fee).
Based on what I can see, their lifetime guarantee, and
customer reviews, my personal guess as to the best flatware
you can buy today is Yamazaki. If anyone has personal
experience with it, please chime in; meanwhile we've linked
to reviews on Amazon where all three customers rated it
"5-star".
Good luck.
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Ted Mooney
finishing.com
Brick, New Jersey |
May 5, 2008
This is very helpful and informative reading. Thanks
everyone. I am replacing my Reed & Barton 18/10 flatware
after 11 years due to staining and pitting. Nothing last
forever. And it look as though the standard is still 18/10
(316). Considering Oneida or Yamazaki...
Maureen Moylan
- Northridge, California
January 31, 2009
I just bought a set of Yamazaki and all I can say is that
I think it is very important to have flatware that feels
good in the hand, has a good weight and looks
beautiful...and this brand delivers on all counts. It is
marked 18/8 and "made in China", and while I don't know how
it will wear, my initial impression is that it is well
designed, well made, and that the company pays attention to
quality. No small thing these days!
Rhonda Shaw
- Chappaqua, New York
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December 27, 2007
Hi. I just came across a 21/0 stainless steel flatware
which I am considering purchasing. According to what I've
learned here, this signifies 21 percent chromium and 0
percent nickel. Is this better or worse, lighter or heavier
than 18/10 stainless steel flatware? Thanks!
Beatrice
Finkelstein
- Chicago, Illinois
January 31, 2008
I am also curious about the 21/0 stainless steel flatware
I see advertised. Is anyone able to offer an explanation on
the durability or quality of 21/0?
Jacque Perry
- Punxsutawney, Pennsylvania
March 8, 2008
If you read between the lines, the key factor in the
ratings is the amount of Nickel in the item. The Nickel is
the metal that reduces the rust and pitting of the base
metal, being Stainless Steel. Stainless Steel is a combined
metal of steel, nickel, chromium, titanium and others. The
SS rating also indicates a hardness, as 21 will be harder
and stronger than 14, though less flexible, meaning it
should last longer in use. The second number in the equation
for flatware as in 18/10, being the 10, indicates the
percentage of nickel being used. Most common ratings as in
18/8 - 18/10 are the basic and accepted range for flatware.
A 21/0 therefore is a strong SS with minimal nickel content.
Most of these utensils have been polished. With minimum
nickel content, the polish will not hold up very long and
will lend itself to staining long term.
Dell Wood
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
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April 13, 2008
i would like to know if lead is ever used in making flatware. I am
concerned because of China's deceptive use of lead in products.
Barbara McBroom
- Hillside, Illinois
April 14, 2008
Hi, Barbara. I can't see any reason a manufacturer would put lead
into a stainless steel product. However, if you were talking silver
plated flatware, there probably are some machinability advantages to
making it from leaded brass.
That doesn't mean I personally believe there will be lead in a
piece of silverplate, but based on the news, I'm certainly not making
any promise on behalf of a Chinese manufacturer.
Regards,
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Ted Mooney
finishing.com
Brick, New Jersey |
October 29, 2008
Can you tell me if there is any aluminum in 18/8 stainless?
Thank you,
bjh
Barbara Hammar
- Corvallis, Oregon
Hi, Barbara. No, there is no aluminum in 18/8 stainless.
Regards,
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Ted Mooney
finishing.com
Brick, New Jersey |
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September 10, 2008
I read all the questions and answers and
they are very informative. However, I did not see anything
about stainless steel cookware that's 18/30 grade. What
would this mean?
Maria
Chua
Employee - Manila, Philippines
October 23,
2008
Thanks for the interesting discussion. I
want to buy a steam cleaner, and have been looking at
different models that have stainless steel boilers. Most of
the boilers are 18/10 steel, but one somewhat less expensive
one is made of 12/10 steel. If this means the amount of
chromium is lower in the steel, will the boiler be less
durable over time?
Thanks,
Janine
Polk
- Eau Claire, Wisconsin
October 27,
2008
Hi, Janine. I've never heard of type 1210
stainless steel, and a quick check of google didn't reveal
any such thing either. Are you sure the "1210" isn't simply
a model number as opposed to a type of stainless
steel?
Regards,
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Ted Mooney
finishing.com
Brick, New Jersey |
November 1,
2008
No, the machine is always listed as
having a 12/10 stainless boiler. It is the Unilux 3000--here
are a couple links for it. In the second link check the
comparison chart a little ways down the page.
www.allbrands.com/products/abp13897.html?ovchn=SPRI&ovcpn=Froogle&ovcrn=Froogle&ovtac=CMP#
www.smart-cleaning-solutions.com/site/1426224/page/825600
Actually, in the bottom chart (steam
cleaners with extractors) I see there are several models
with 12/10 boilers also.
Is this just a mistake, and they actually
all have 18/10 stainless boilers?
Janine Polk
- Eau Claire,
Wisconsin
November 1,
2008
Hi, Janine. Remember that catalogs are
written not by metallurgists but by sales & marketing
people, and that errors creep into everything. But in this
particular case it says the boilers are made of type 304
stainless steel (which is an 18/8 stainless steel); I
believe they are trying to say that the thickness of the
steel is 12 and 10 gauge (maybe 12 gauge cylindrical shell
and 10 gauge top and bottom plate/bell). One reason I
believe this is that the heavier gauges seem to be specified
on the higher pressure models.
Regards,
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Ted Mooney
finishing.com
Brick, New Jersey |
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December 15, 2008
I am about to buy a very very large quantity of stainless steel
tableware for a huge dining facility I will be moving my current
facility to. We serve meals to over a thousand people 3 times a day
and the tableware gets a lot of use. What I have been using is 18/10,
and we have specifically gotten this because it is very durable. I am
trying to save money and so I am considering buying 18/8 instead. I
guess I wanted some opinion on whether I should save the money buying
a lower grade, or save money by having a more durable 18/10 which
lasts longer. But my question is, is it really worth the difference,
and based on your experience with the metals, what do you think would
work better for me? Also, is 18/8 magnetic like 18/10 is.
Thank you!
Rosemary Johnson
buyer - Tampa, Florida
December 16, 2008
Hi, Rosemary. 18/8 is not magnetic and neither is 18/10. 18/10 is
better and more expensive but I think it's unlikely that a quality
brand of 18/8 would be unsatisfactory.
Regards,
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Ted Mooney
finishing.com
Brick, New Jersey |
January 23, 2009
I have an 18/8 stainless steel sports bottle that is magnetic as
well. If 18/8 is not supposed to be magnetic, what would cause it to
be so?
Patti Douglas
buyer - Portland, Oregon
January 26, 2009
Hi, Patti. Cold working during manufacture can leave 18/8 with a
very slight magnetic attraction. But if it's significantly magnetic,
like regular steel is, I'd say it is not 18/8.
Regards,
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Ted Mooney
finishing.com
Brick, New Jersey |
February 8, 2009
HI..good info here. I am looking at purchasing a new set of pots
and pans..the description says 18/10 lids
ok.what are the pots made from, or are they saying lids and not
addressing pots, because of the copper bottoms?
at a loss...
J FRED MUGGS
- Meadville, Mississippi
February 28, 2009
Hi, J Fred Muggs. Your parents certainly had a very
weird sense of humor, trying to make a monkey out of you. My
sympathies!
If the manufacturer doesn't claim 18/10 I think it would be a leap
of faith to expect it.
Regards,
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Ted Mooney
finishing.com
Brick, New Jersey |
March 11, 2009
Great to see all of this chat on Stainless. I'd like to add one
factor - the higher nickel content allow a much brighter and whiter
shine. It's apparent in cookware as well. If you use 18/0 which I
think is also 201 (not sure) in flatware and cookware it dulls
quickly over time. It's still food safe just not as nice to look at
after a few uses.
Bradley Smith
- Sacramento, California
March 26, 2009
The debate between 304 and 316 on leaching metal toxins is
fascinating. I understand they are both inert.
I am making Kombucha tea, which is a highly acidic fermented tea.
Would 304 or 316 be more suited, for continuous repeated home use.
Better than glass even? The culture would ferment for up to 30 days
in the vessel in black tea and sugar. Any help would be great don't
want to make family sick.
chad york
- puyallup, Washington
April 23, 2009
Hi, Chad. Type 304 and 316 stainless are quite similar, but type
316 is more corrosion resistant. I think that is all that could be
said short of retaining a laboratory to ferment the mixture for 30
days and then testing for dissolved metals.
But glass is completely inert to food products.
Regards,
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Ted Mooney
finishing.com
Brick, New Jersey |
April 4, 2009
We need to replace a 28-yr old kitchen sink. Which would be more
durable and best:
"20 gauge, Type 304 Series stainless steel w/satin finish 18/10
chrome-nickel content"
or
"18 gauge, 18/10 stainless steel"
We've always though the lower gauge was better, but the Type 304 is a
new wrinkle since we bought last.
Thank you.
Bobbie Cavano
consumer/buyer - Rome, New York
April 9, 2009
Hi, Bobbie. 18 gauge is heavier than 20 gauge. Type 304 and 18/10
are essentially the same thing. The wording "type 304" is just a
little more exacting about the composition than the more generic 18
percent chrome 10 percent nickel.
Regards,
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Ted Mooney
finishing.com
Brick, New Jersey |
April 10, 2009
Thank you for taking the time to respond.
Bobbie Cavano
consumer/buyer - Rome, New York sp
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I was recently in India and a lot of the factories are
using 14/1 and 14/04 stainless instead of 18/10. The price
is reduced and the factories are saying that products
manufactured from 14/1 and 14/04 pass all tests for
corrosion and rust.
I would like to know more about this type of stainless
steel, the strength and what defects can we expect to
encounter if we use this material to manufacture giftware
products.
Thanks
Diane Stevens
- Eatontown, New Jersey
June 16, 2009
Hi,
I also have the same question as Diane S. asked -- could you
expound on the qualities of 14/1 stainless and if it is sub
par from 18/10 for food grade usage?
Thanks!
Andrea
Andrea Thien
- santa barbara, ca
June 18, 2009
Hi, Andrea. I didn't comment because I've never heard of
it. Sorry. Does anyone know the composition or anything else
about it beyond that they call it "14/1" ? Thanks.
Regards,
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Ted Mooney
finishing.com
Brick, New Jersey |
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