Letter 29294

Which is better: 18/8 or 18/10 stainless steel?  

++++ Which metal is more durable: 18/10 or 18/8 stainless steel? I am considering purchasing some flatware that is 18/8 stainless, and wonder how strong it will be. Thanks, H Dawson homemaker - Dallas, TX, USA ++++ Previously (November 2000) on another Internet forum: Question I would like to know about stainless steel , specifically which is stronger and will last longer 18/10 or 18/8. which would make a heavier weight flatware ? I cant find these answers anywhere. thank you so much.

Answer
Hello Shelly! Let me start with a few basics, OK? The 18/8 and 18/10 designations are older terms, and refer to the amount of chromium and nickel alloyed with the iron, to comprise the stainless steel. The 18/8 name has been pretty much replaced, in the States at least, by several other designations. 301 stainless steel has 16-18% Cr, and 6-8% Ni 302 stainless steel has 17-19% Cr, and 8-10% Ni 304 stainless steel has 18-20% Cr, and 8-10.5% Ni That may explain your difficulty in finding information on these alloys. Similarly, 18/10 is usually referred to as 316 stainless steel, with 16-18% Cr, 10-14% Ni, and also 2-3% molybdenum, which greatly increases the resistance to pitting corrosion in seawater. Good stuff, that moly.

Now the mechanical properties these 300 series stainless steels are all the same! In the annealed condition, they are all listed at 75 ksi tensile strength, 30 ksi yield strength. The slight difference in Cr and Ni isn't enough to cause a difference in the strength by themselves. These alloys can be made harder, however, by cold working, i.e. rolling or drawing through a die or extruding through a die or some other such process which will deform the metal, while it is at most a few hundred degrees F. Here, too, the mechanical properties are the same: half-hard stock, for example, has 150 ksi tensile, 110 ksi yield strength, no matter if it is 301, 302, 304, 316, etc.

The difference is in the corrosion resistance (which I assume you're not interested in, since all will be fine for flatware) and in the ductility. A lower alloyed 301 has more ductility when work hardened than the higher alloyed 316. So after you stamp out your quarter hard sheet into forks, you can bend one of the tines more often, or farther, if it is of 301 rather than if it is made of 304 or 316, before it will crack. The weight of the flatware will depend on geometry, since the densities of the stainless steel grades are identical, for practical purposes. Iron, chromium, and nickel all weigh about the same. A splendid source of information on stainless steels is the Nickel Development Institute, at www.nidi.org, which offers a lot of FREE literature they are glad to send. And please don't hesitate to ask here again! (Gosh, I hope I answered your question in all this rambling!) Take care!

Lee Gearhart
- East Aurora, NY

Very informative answer. Now I'm wondering about 18/0. I've seen a number of flatware sets listed as such. Does the 0 indicate lower quality, less corrosion protection, what not?

Amanda G [name deleted for privacy due to age of posting]
- Jetmore, KS, USA

• 18/0 would mean 18 percent chromium and 0 percent nickel
• 18/8 indicates 18 percent chromium & 8 percent nickel
• 18/10 indicates 18 percent chromium & 10 percent nickel.

Because nickel costs about $17 per pound, flatware which contains none would be less expensive than flatware which contains 8 or 10 percent nickel.

While 18/0 is not necessarily unsatisfactory, it is not considered as corrosion resistant.

Ted Mooney, P.E.  finishing.com Brick, New Jersey

Is any grade better for one's health than another? I'm particularly interested in stainless steel cooking ware.

Clarissa D [name deleted for privacy due to age of posting]
Social Worker - New Mexico, USA

Now that I understand about 18/8 and 18/10 - what about flatware that doesn't bend?

Laurie B [name deleted for privacy due to age of posting]
- Wellsville, Utah, USA

Clarissa, sorry I have no answer except that all of these stainless steels are considered safe.

Laurie,
That has much more to do with the dimensions (and consequently the weight) than the type of material. In this context the resistance to permanent bending is proportional to the second power of the thickness. As a slight simplification, flatware that is 40 percent thicker will be 40 percent heavier and twice as strong. So flatware, like produce, should be "heavy in the hand".

Ted Mooney, P.E. 
finishing.com
Brick, New Jersey

I was recently in India and a lot of the factories are using 14/1 and 14/04 stainless instead of 18/10. The price is reduced and the factories are saying that products manufactured from 14/1 and 14/04 pass all tests for corrosion and rust.

I would like to know more about this type of stainless steel, the strength and what defects can we expect to encounter if we use this material to manufacture giftware products.

Thanks

Diane T. Stevens
- Eatontown, NJ, USA

I have found a number of third-party sources that verify the superiority of 316 steel, versus lower grades of stainless steel on the market such as 304 and 18/8.

Here is some very interesting data on 316 steel, according to the Sandmeyer Steel Company:
http://www.sandmeyersteel.com/316-316L.html

Here is a quote from this page:

316 steel is used in the "manufacture and handling of certain food and pharmaceutical products where the molybdenum-containing stainless steels are often required in order to minimize metallic contamination."


Here is a website where I found that Pharmaceutical companies use 316 steel for purposes of high purity in their products:
http://www.arcmachines.com/appPages/weldspec02.html

Here is a quote from this page:

"The Baseline series of PHARMACEUTICAL ENGINEERING GUIDES was developed by ISPE in cooperation with the FDA to establish a baseline approach to new and renovated facility design, construction commissioning and qualification. . . . discusses material selection for piping systems and recommends type 316L as the preferred steel for a High Purity Water generation and distribution system. "

I also have a power-point presentation which includes data from multiple Allegheny Ludlum metallurgical studies, and demonstrates the differences between 304 steel and 316 steel.

Joseph Matthew Gleason
- Anna, Texas, USA

My son struggles with metal toxins, and I am at a loss as to which brand of flatware would be the least toxin for him. He is now in a treatment program to detoxify his body of metal toxins, and I don't want to put toxins back into his system. I have read this and that about 316 steel etc, but I am still unsure as to what flatware to get. Please help by sharing a brand(s)of non-toxin quality flatware. Thanks so much!

Deborah Jan Evgenikos
- Placerville, California, USA

In answer To:

"My son struggles with metal toxins . . ."

Sterling silver would be your best choice,as there is no documented cases of allergies or toxic effects by silver. You may not be able to use a commercial polish to keep it clean looking.

Russ Goodrich
- Santa Clara, Ca, USA

Ed. note: If unable to use commercial silver polish, then see letter 4785 for removing tarnish from silver with baking soda.

Thank you for all the fine information. This is the best and most informative on a subject of some confusion to those of us who are non-engineer/non-metalurgist types out here.

Kim Bentz
- Colorado Springs, CO, USA

Ed. note: Thank you so much for the kind words, Kim.

I have a new set of flatware that is marked "stainless china". Can you tell me about this flatware and possibly why it tarnishes every time I put it in the dishwasher?? Now my other flatware and utensils are tarnishing too. I've had the dishwasher checked and cleaned it out with vinegar washes several times. Please help!

Linda Knepp
housewife - State College, PA

The "Stainless China" flatware is tarnishing each time you put it in the dishwasher because it was MADE in China (it's not "china" in the ceramic-plate sense). The stainless indication means that it has a higher level of chromium than standard steel, but most likely a low (if any) nickel content. You want to buy something that says 18/10 or 18/8 right on the handle.
Eric

Eric Larson
- Simi Valley, CA

re:
"Sterling silver would be your best choice,as there is no documented cases of allergies or toxic effects by silver. You may not be able to use a commercial polish to keep it clean looking".


Can anyone tell me why there is no documented cases of allergies to this, when there is apparently nickel in sterling or most sterlings? I may have misunderstood though. Just wondering as I have a bad allergy to nickel.Seems the only cookware I do not have a reaction to is a 316L type.What should I use for flatware?

Linda Fischer
- Pt Alberni, B.C., Canada

I don't think that that is accurate, Linda. The usual alloying material in sterling silver is copper, and silverplate or silver would probably be the least allergenic.

Ted Mooney, P.E. 
finishing.com
Brick, New Jersey

Hi. I just came across a 21/0 stainless steel flatware which I am considering purchasing. According to what I've learned here, this signifies 21 percent chromium and 0 percent nickel. Is this better or worse, lighter or heavier than 18/10 stainless steel flatware? Thanks!

Beatrice Finkelstein
none - Chicago, IL, USA

January 1, 2008

As I read through all the answers I got more confused! Which is the better flatware? Is more nickel better? heavier? pricier? I need high quality, pit and corrosion resistant, heavy flatware in my hand. What is the very best? Which should I buy if price is not a consideration only quality,durability and beautiful finish are the criteria? Help! I hate cheap flatware so much I can't eat with it, it literally hurts my hand!

Gail Robinson
buyer - Willimantic, CT, USA

Yes, Gail, more nickel is better and more expensive. 18/8 or 18/10 stainless steel is best. But I don't think you can really select flatware on this basis, because there is more to the process of manufacturing good stainless steel than just the alloy composition. I think you can go only by the reputation of the maker and their guarantees. Although I am a strong proponent of "Buy American", I don't know of any flatware companies that guarantee that their flatware is made in the USA. It's almost all made in China today, and I have no confidence in it or the companies selling it. If anybody knows of American-made place service, please pipe in. I have no personal experience with Japanese flatware, but at least Japanese companies do not seem to practice "meatball whoring" (letting 3rd parties use their logo/meatball in exchange for money) as so many American companies do today. Based on what I can see, and their lifetime guarantee and customer reviews, my personal guess as to the best flatware you can buy today is Yamazaki. If anyone has personal experience with it, please chime in; meanwhile we've linked to reviews on Amazon where all three customers rated it "5-star". Ted Mooney, P.E.  finishing.com Brick, New Jersey

i would like to know if lead is ever used in making flatware. I am concerned because of China's deceptive use of lead in products.

Barbara McBroom
- Hillside , IL USA

Hi, Barbara. I can't see any reason a manufacturer would put lead into a stainless steel product. However, if you were talking silver plated flatware, there probably are some advantages to making it from leaded brass.

That doesn't mean I personally believe there is much chance of finding lead in a piece of silverplate, but I'm not about to make such a promise on behalf of a Chinese manufacturer.

Regards,

Ted Mooney, P.E.  finishing.com Brick, New Jersey

This is very helpful and informative reading. Thanks everyone. I am replacing my Reed & Barton 18/10 flatware after 11 years due to staining and pitting. Nothing last forever. And it look as though the standard is still 18/10 (316). Considering Oneida or Yamazaki...

Maureen Moylan
- Northridge, CA, USA

In answer To:

"My son struggles with metal toxins . . ."

The safest metal for your son to use would be titanium.
Titanium forms an oxide layer that is extremely inert and non-reactive. This is the reason titanium is one of the most commonly used metals for surgical implants.

Camping stores (such as REI) sell titanium forks and spoons.

Keith Savage
- Austin, TX, USA

I read all the questions and answers and they are very informative. However, I did not see anything about stainless steel cookware that's 18/30 grade. What would this mean?

Maria Chua
Employee - Manila, Philippines

1810 stainless cookwear set? Would this be a good deal for cooking? Trying to buy a good pan set for my sons of college cooking. I would prefer something that would not burn easily. I personally have Club cook wear and now it is all coated. have bought him a few pieces at resale stores but

Fran Seibel
none - Chicago, IL

Thanks for the interesting discussion. I want to buy a steam cleaner, and have been looking at different models that have stainless steel boilers. Most of the boilers are 18/10 steel, but one somewhat less expensive one is made of 12/10 steel. If this means the amount of chromium is lower in the steel, will the boiler be less durable over time?

Thanks,

Janine Polk
- Eau Claire, WI, United States

Hi, Janine. I've never heard of type 1210 stainless steel, and a quick check of google didn't reveal any such thing either. Are you sure the "1210" isn't simply a model number as opposed to a type of stainless steel?

Regards,

Ted Mooney, P.E. 
finishing.com
Brick, New Jersey

Can you tell me if there is any aluminum in 18/8 stainless?

Thank you,

bjh

Barbara Hammar
none - Corvallis, OR USA

Hi, Barbara. No, there is no aluminum in 18/8 stainless.

Regards,

Ted Mooney, P.E. 
finishing.com
Brick, New Jersey

No, the machine is always listed as having a 12/10 stainless boiler. It is the Unilux 3000--here are a couple links for it. In the second link check the comparison chart a little ways down the page.

www.allbrands.com/products/abp13897.html?ovchn=SPRI&ovcpn=Froogle&ovcrn=Froogle&ovtac=CMP#

www.smart-cleaning-solutions.com/site/1426224/page/825600

Actually, in the bottom chart (steam cleaners with extractors) I see there are several models with 12/10 boilers also.

Is this just a mistake, and they actually all have 18/10 stainless boilers?

Janine Polk
- Eau Claire, WI, United States

Hi, Janine. Remember that catalogs are written not by metallurgists but by sales & marketing people, and that errors creep into everything. But in this particular case it says the boilers are made of type 304 stainless steel (which is an 18/8 stainless steel); I believe they are trying to say that the thickness of the steel is 12 and 10 gauge (maybe 12 gauge cylindrical shell and 10 gauge top and bottom plate/bell). One reason I believe this is that the heavier gauges seem to be specified on the higher pressure models.

Regards,

Ted Mooney, P.E. 
finishing.com
Brick, New Jersey

OK, back to the original question – what grade of stainless steel should I use for cooking utensils?

I work for a company that fabricates carbon steel and stainless steel piping systems for food processing plants, water treatment plants and industrial users. My job is to help with selecting the best (most cost-effective) materials for our customer's specific applications.

18-8 stainless steel – now most often referred to as 304 or UNS S30400. – Good, general purpose stainless steel. Used for some drinking water plants, petrochemical plants, lots of structural uses. If you want to make transit bus handrails, use 304. It's resistant to most chemicals, and won't pit or corrode from people's sweaty hands. Good for cooking utensils, but not as goods as 316.

18-10 stainless steel - now most often referred to as 302 or UNS S30200. About the same for food use as 18-8. Lots of good, inexpensive cookware is made with this alloy.

18-10MO - now most often referred to as 316 or UNS S31600. This is the alloy of choice for food processing equipment and applications requiring excellent corrosion resistance to most chemicals. 316 has 18% chrome, 10% nickel and 3% molybdenum. The molybdenum has a major effect on resisting acidic and chloride corrosion. Lots of foods are acidic – tomato sauce is one that will pit 304 but not 316. Just about everything you cook has salt in it, and salt (especially sea salt) has high chloride levels.

However, most if this is irrelevant. Unless you're running a meat packing plant next to the ocean (and they all use 316), any of these grades of stainless will work just fine.

How to destroy stainless steel cookware:

> Use with plain steel items. In our plant, we carefully segregate stainless steel from plain carbon steel. All of our shelves are coated with plastic so the stainless steel never touches carbon steel. Having both types of steel in contact may cause the stainless steel to develop surface rust. Using stainless steel spatulas on cast iron frypans may cause rust marks to develop on the spatula. Don't use plain steel wool to clean your stainless steel pots – use a ScotchBrite pad or stainless steel wool.

> Let them soak for hours. Leaving your spaghetti sauce pot in the sink full of tomato-ey water is the perfect way to start pitting. Stagnant acidic water is the worst thing you can do. When we design tanks for food processing plants, we take special care to make sure the tanks can completely drain and there are no crevices to collect stagnant water.

Bottom line, any good-quality 18-8, 18-10, 302, 304 or 316 stainless cooking utensils will be head and shoulders beyond most of the other available materials. Teflon-coated pots chip and flake, glass breaks and discolours, copper tarnishes and often contains lead, strong detergents dissolve aluminum.

As for the SaladMaster demo, it's a trick. When the nice SaladMaster salespeople boil water in your pots and pans, you're comparing the results against the brand new, never-been-used SaladMaster pots they brought with and unwrapped in front of you. Your pots and pans have millions of microscopic surface cracks that may trap equally microscopic food particles. That's what you taste – the boiling water and baking soda leaches out some of the food particles, causing the yucky taste. The brand new SaladMaster pots have never been used, so no food in THEIR microscopic cracks, so no taste.

Sheldon Jaffe
- Langley, B.C., Canada

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