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CPVC vs. copper to plumb a house
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I am an artist and my husband is a residential designer. We have galvanized pipes now and are going to replace them, due to little water pressure.What is safest, copper or cpvc for plumbing a house? I read that PVC will leach toxins. How is PVC different from CPVC and what might be the advantages over copper. How do they differ in price?
Thanks,
Bellskye Thomasartist - College Park, Georgia
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I am interested in why you want to change from galvanised pipes to copper or CPVC "due to little water pressure". I cannot see how changing the pipes will alter the water pressure, unless the pipes are blocked with chalk or something.
Anyhow, firstly, CPVC is "chlorinated polyvinyl chloride" - it is a "polymer" or plastic and has greater heat resistance and better impact strength than conventional PVC. The manufacture of PVC entails using vinyl chloride monomer and this is highly toxic, but if the correct grade is bought, this will not be a problem. The best way to get the correct grade is to go to a reputable plumbers outlet and get it there. You will also be able to compare its price with copper pipe. Being in the UK, any comparison I can make will not be applicable in Georgia!
The advantages of CPVC over copper are varied, but unfortunately not precise. Firstly, CPVC will not corrode, as copper can do, secondly, it will not induce corrosion elsewhere, as copper can do. Thirdly, it is a pretty poor electrical conductor, so if you use your water pipes to earth your mains electrics, you may have a problem there. Fourthly, you can solder copper, but you can only join CPVC with special adhesives (obviously you can use special connectors for both types of pipe). Fifthly, you can paint copper pipes, but CPVC will not be so keen to take on most paints. I believe copper is better than CPVC at operating in extreme temperatures, but I suspect that is not a problem in Georgia. Sixthly, if you have hard water and want to soften it by electromagnetism, copper pipes are much better than CPVC as they will induce an electromagnetic field and CPVC will not. Seventhly (?!) copper pipes, if made properly, may have better resistance to some unwanted chemicals sometimes found in drinking water. Eighthly, copper is pretty good at reducing and preventing arthritis and small doses of copper salts are good for you. Finally, CPVC is more up to date than copper, but personally I think copper has got "class"!
At the end of the day, it is up to you and your taste. Either way, do not do any plumbing work on the cheap -- get the correct materials for the job and get them certified at the POS -- a cheap job can result in catastrophic failure and water everywhere!
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Trevor Crichton R&D practical scientist The Pheasantries - Chesham, U.K. |
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Hi Bellskye ! Re cost difference between copper and plastics, I haven't the slightest clue. Goest thou to thy nearest plumbing store and you'd find out. Re PVC and CPVC. There is no difference except for price and CPVC's higher temperature resistance. Certainly, PVC would be easier to install than copper and cost far less than CPVC. PVC would, I feel, be ideal for all cold water lines. The standard pipe is approved for potable water. PVC or CPVC's disadvantages lie in being attacked by many solvents and cracking during a freeze-up (but Polyethylene can freeze up till the cows come home with impunity) That PVC will leach out toxins is, hells bells, total nonsense. In schools rearing fish eggs, they all die, ie. the hatchlings do, if the water is fed in using copper pipes. But not with PVC. Please draw your own conclusions. Summary ... use PVC ... and if you go to the 'library' on finishing.com, there's an article on How to and How Not to cement PVC.
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Use only CPVC for your hot and cold water supply lines. Go to http://www.flowguardgold.com/featuresBenefits/pipevscopper.asp and read comparisons and you will arrive at only one choice, CPVC. I am not associated with flowguardgold. If you add pipe insulation on CPVC supply lines, be sure it is recommended by the manufacturer and compatible with CPVC. CPVC can be painted with latex paints only (no solvent or oil based paint products should be used). PVC is fine for waste pipes.
Jim Vkoh- Sarasota, Florida
(2004)
There is probably a lot of truth on that comparison sheet, Jim. But when a document is touted as a point-by-point comparison between two widely accepted alternatives, and they find huge advantage to their own system on 14 different points, and are utterly helpless to find even one single slim advantage to the alternate system on any count, it condemns itself as not actually being impartial at all, but just sales blather.
Take a lesson, salespeople: "damn your competition with faint praise" :-)
Refusing to acknowledge anything whatsoever in their favor reflects poorly on you.
Ted Mooney, P.E.
finishing.com
Brick, New Jersey
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I am the Georgia Operations Manager for the largest Polybutylene remediation company in America. We offer both copper and CPVC. I will tell you that we have just a little bit better profit margin with copper but strongly suggest that people use CPVC as long as it is Flowguard Gold CPVC. Don't tempt yourself by mixing PVC and CPVC. CPVC is rated for both hot and cold, PVC is cold only, the outside diameter of the two are different so a wider variety of fittings will be necessary, the cements and applications are different, etc. I don't recommend the copper because of it's vulnerability to corrosion, (all water is corrosive to copper). The corrosion dissolves into your potable supply adding heavy metals like tin, antimony, of course copper as well as sulfites and sulfates. Flowguard Gold is quieter, will outlast the copper, and you don't have to use a torch in a finished home to install it.
Gary Andrews- Lawrenceville, Georgia
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I JUST INSTALLED PVC FOR MY HOT WATERLINES AM I IN TROUBLE.
G BOONEHOMEOWNER - DAYTONA, Florida
Sorry, G, PVC gets soft as cooked spaghetti at 140 to 150 degrees. It's not going to be any good.
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 Ted Mooney, P.E. finishing.com Brick, New Jersey |
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Ed. note: There are credible reports further down the thread that claim that PVC is not a problem for domestic hot water lines.
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All these posts about PVC pipe for cold water and no one mentions the main problem with such. PVC will leech your water if it gets above 73 degrees Fahrenheit. It is a underground pipe only and temp limit should be plainly printed on the pipe.
Raymond Haywood- Tallassee, Alabama
March 15, 2008
I have worked for a major retailer selling all the three materials discussed here for some years. I have always been curious why cpvc didn't sell better than it does. Having read the posts on this topic let me take note that almost none of the posts here (with one exception) seem to come from people with much experience installing cpvc. I've researched this issue of copper vs. cpvc (from the manufacturers on down) for a while now. Seems there's only one logical reason cpvc was never widely accepted years ago when it was introduced: because it was plastic. As one state inspector concluded,,,it's really an issue of "perceived quality". An honest assessment should come up with the conclusion that there's nothing inherently wrong with cpvc and many advantages to it in fact. Sure, nothing prettier than a well laid out copper system,,,and yeah,,,it's stronger! but balanced against it's cost in material and time of installation,,,,cpvc should win any contest along those lines. Whole buildings are being laid in with this stuff now that copper prices are crazy. Now, with respect to pex: I think pex is wonderful for its' flexibility only. Pex is no godsend with respect to cost, those brass fittings add up. To conclude, when strength is needed, or when you get close to a high temperature source like a flue, I'd suggest you stick to metal. If flexibility is critical, go pex. If cost is important, and flexibility is not important than I say try cpvc and flowguard gold glue, I think it's so ridiculously easy and fast you'll be converted.
Pat McSherry- Minneapolis, Minnesota
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Ed. note: Your input is very welcome, Pat, but please refrain from challenging the credentials of the other posters.
April 27, 2008
CPVC fittings ? hot/cold ? cold ONLY I am adding to and moving an install of cpvc, hot and cold runs... have found all the fittings I need except one and it says on the box, COLD water only... what's up with that...
Paul Williamshobbyist - Macon, Georgia
May 17, 2008
Not often, but every now and then we get temps below freezing. Will CPVC burst? Thanks
Scott Darrn- Tuscan, Arizona
June 10, 2008
I am in the process of making a decision about what material to use to replumb my house, originally built in 1956 in Central Florida. The more I read, the more confused I become. Not a big fan of plastics, I thought copper would be the best option but have been told by a plumber about major issues with the quality of water in the area and lighting causing pin holes. Does anyone have any knowledge and/or experience in Central Florida?
Sandra L.- Orlando, Florida
November 24, 2008
I work in a plant house of a hospital.These days we are planning to replace the copper pipes to CPVC.According to my survey, I found CPVC better than all metals and PPR. it can handle a temperature of more than 95 degrees celc. and a pressure of more than 16 bar.It is more healthy than other materials.Furthermore, it easy to install.Just go through available manuals and select the right one.
ALL THE BEST.
- Manama , Bahrain
December 14, 2008
PPR is far better than CPVC & Copper. Main reason is the positive argument state for CPVC is equivalent to PPR and a few more advantages than cpvc can be listed. Thanks & best wishes...
Godly P.S.plumber - Manama, Bahrain
July 6, 2009
Ted, (et al)
Regarding PVC for hot water lines... WHO in their right mind keeps their hot water lines at or above 140° anyways?! Just because the water heater is capable of such a feat, does not suggest it to be a good idea... And I have yet to see a plain 'ol Sched 40 PVC pipe soften "like a spaghetti noodle" at 140° - the Vicat (softening) point of the stuff is over 180°... That's where the material BEGINS to soften, not where it becomes a noodle...
That said... If you are under 140° on your hot water runs - which you should be... Go for it. I installed it over a decade ago as a new homeowner that didn't know any better, and my lines haven't flailed, failed, or shown any signs of wear yet. Funny how ignorance sometimes disproves "common logic"...
My .02 - take it for what it's worth.
- Hastings, Michigan
August 13, 2009
I would have to agree with Ted, I too have used pvc for both hot and cold, many times. I have had the same positives and also have had the split to the end if left to freeze. But I have had the same happen to copper and it cost a lot less to replace the plastic. As far as soft noodles... never seen it. May be worth a try though.
Jeff Homeman- Clinton, Oklahoma
November 8, 2009
CPVC is not affected by sunlight to get deformed whereas PPR is.
zuhair hasan- manama-bahrain
February 8, 2010
I just spent hours replacing a broken cpvc pipe in a wall. If they had used copper, this would not have happened. I will NEVER again use cpvc in any place where it cannot be conveniently accessed or repaired. Ripping out a wall to fix a broken plastic pipe is not fun!
Matthew Reed- Lebanon, Oregon
April 23, 2010
CPVC is THE best. For cost and ease of installation nothing is better. I removed all the old galvanized pipe from my house and re-installed both PVC and CPVC for the cold and hot lines. Now I did have access so I could bring it up into the walls to the Kitchen and both Baths and the W/D hookups.
The re-install of about a total of 120 feet of pipe was done in about 3 hours. Using PVC CPVC is SOOOO easy to cut, stick in "tees" for offshoots and cement together. And NOT ONE LEAK.
My house now has copper and I have NO desire to learn to deal with soldering, especially under the house in the crawlspace where I have insulation galore. CPVC will be ALL I'd ever use.
- Portland, Oregon
August 4, 2010
It appears there a lots of fans for CPVC. So why do most new houses (around south Texas at least) use copper? I would think they would go for the least costly option if there are no advantages to the more expensive option.
P Morris- Houston, Texas, USA
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December 7, 2010
Hey CPVC might have benefits but what about the raw material used in its production. CPVC is made of crude oil, by use of CPVC aren't we taking a step back on the new world order to go green and save the planet. Inderjit Singh- Jalandhar,Punjab,India December 8, 2010 Oil isn't the enemy, solar power is. As we cover the earth with high-absorptivity, low-emissivity surfaces, so as to capture the sun's energy instead of letting it bounce back into space, how can we possibly expect this to not warm the planet? :-) (only kidding) Regards,
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February 19, 2011
I agree with M. Smith. I'm sure there are many industrial and business settings that require pipes capable of carrying near-boiling water, but not the average house.
If you're installing pipes for fire sprinklers, though, please don't use PVC:
www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-0219-firefighter-20110219,0,3264089.story
- Campbell River, BC, Canada
August 8, 2011
hi maybe you can help me out I am building a house in Miami Florida and I would like to know the pros and cons of copper vs cpvc, and what you would recommend and why.
Javier Torreshome owner - Miami, Florida
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Ed. note: I thought that is what we all just finished doing, cousin :-)
Can you please try to frame your question in terms of the responses that were already offered? Thanks.
December 30, 2011
We have been having a terrible time using CPVC for hot and cold water piping inside our house built with brick and r.c.c (no wood). First incident we had was that a leak under a floor developed after about 5 years of use. Then the CPVC pipe melted where it connected to the hot water heater when the thermostat failed. After fixing all this we find another leak developed when the weather gets cold. My conclusion is that CPVC is unsuitable for brick and concrete structures where there is little scope for expansion ? Definitely not suitable for connecting near a boiler or hot water.
Rajiv Ghai- New Delhi, India
January 5, 2012
Every hot water heater installation manual clearly shows copper as exit for a required distance. I would suggest ten feet of copper, then convert to CPVC.
Andrew Lehrer- Tampa, Florida
January 20, 2012
Q. CPVC in large sizes (1 1/2" up to 3 1/2" or 4") for replacement of copper in a highrise apartment setting (13 stories)? With cost being a factor in materials as well as with labor, we are looking to replace the copper mains and tees up to couplings where we want to change back into copper and clamp (Verisa) the transition pieces to brass ball valves and then into the existing copper befor the copper lines go into the utility chases up to the top floors. We plan to assemble the new CPVC main feeder lines along side of (above) the existing copper and once hung in place shut the water off and change out as many as possible each day once the water is off. It will be off from 9 AM through 3 PM each day until we have changed out the forty-two valves in the first floor ceiling system. Is there a commercial plumber out there who would agree with this application?
Forest HallSr. Project Manager - Memphis, Tennessee, USA