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Letter 18486
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 Ted Mooney finishing.com Brick, New Jersey |
August 7, 2008
Just a response to Ted.
I certainly don't think that in most of the previous posters' cases
there is misuse. They seem to be doing everything they can to prevent
or at least mitigate the problem somewhat (hence, why they're here
and posting responses.) However, the crux of my customers are
timeshare resorts and extended stay hotels where the norm is to load
the dishwasher with anything that's dirty, run it, and then leave the
load in the dishwasher for the next guests. It could be in there for
a day, a few days, a week or sometimes more. In our case, it is due
to misuse much more often than not. Not that we can expect the
housekeepers to hand-wash the flatware in every unit. Outside of
buying top of the line flatware that will just walk out of the units
with some sticky-fingered patrons, there are still measures our
customers can take to at least minimize the problem some, or at least
understand why it's happening.
Regarding Chinese produced flatware... I can't wait for more
flatware/cookware manufacturing to return to the US. With fuel prices
on the rise and the constant chatter of increased legislative
restrictions, tariffs, and anti-dumping taxes, I do actually see it
on the horizon, though still fairly distant. In addition to
distributing for the large-name manufacturers, we also import many
steel products. We have gone away from China and only import from
India now. Though, it's only barely the lesser of two evils... and my
prediction is that it won't be for long. India is the China of
tomorrow, just a hunch. For the time being, we really have no other
choice as the only domestic manufacturers of our types of product are
very high-end/retail oriented companies. Understandably, there just
not much demand for that in our industry.
As far as if it's possible that the "new vs old" flatware is a
quality issue, I have no doubt. One company cuts some corners to
offer a better price, then unfortunately the rest need to follow to
stay competitive. Though, I don't think that's a domestic vs import
issue. As much as we don't like to admit it, the factories &
workers overseas are just as capable of producing quality flatware as
the factory down the road from me in Oneida was in the 50's, 60's and
70's, etc. Presumably more so given technological advancements. China
has also done a lot of "housekeeping" in the past three years and
most of their run-down shoddy factories were closed. It's almost all
new factories now (no comment on how state of the art they are in
terms of eco-friendliness though.) This is just one reason they're
slowly losing their competitive advantage, their prices have
increased substantially as a result. The companies who are producing
(and/or licensing) these patterns also have (or have the option of
having) quality control employees working full-time in the overseas
factories. Though I know very little about passivating or any other
manufacturing process, I have to assume it's simply a matter of them
(the name brand companies) opting to cut corners in order to stay
price-competitive. Period.
Kevin Martinez
- Utica, New York
This is a very long thread with a lot of case histories that are
very interesting. Our company deals with passivation of stainless
steel (what makes stainless steel stain-less; and we deal with
corrosion problems of stainless steels every day.
Many of the comments given on this topic are right on target, and a
few are wives tales. However, we can with great certainty tell
everyone that the stainless steels used in flatware today are much
poorer in quality than the old steel manufactured in the U.S., Europe
and Japan. We have seen this in every industry that uses stainless
steel. All of this has been driven by the drive for low cost goods,
which in the end has produced products that are more and more
inferior. The "good" companies have been driven by the large
retailers to sell at lower and lower prices, causing poorer quality
as a result.
There are definite problems in use, also; and I will cover this later
in my response. But, for the main problem you can be sure that the
quality of steel is the source. If you can find flatware (and other
products) with steel manufactured in the above countries you will
have much better quality, and products that truly DO stain less.
Remember that the stainless steel is still 70-80% iron, so it will
still rust if the quality is poor or it is stressed by chemicals that
are not good for stainless steel. If the steel is full of inclusions
caused by poor manufacture and use of high amounts of scrap iron you
will have rusting even in normal uses.
There are many causes for the poor steel. We would be happy to
discuss this with the manufacturers and marketers of flatware and
other household products if they contact us. We would hope that some
of the poor trends in quality can be reversed by manufacturers that
are responsible.
As far as the end use conditions causing rusting of flatware, there
are a few guidelines that are logical from a chemical and
metallurgical standpoint:
First of all you should NEVER expose stainless steel to any bleach or
bleach containing products.
Second, you want to avoid ANY products that contain chlorides.
Third, there is definitely a possibility that dishwashers made of
stainless interior can cause a galvanic condition in the dishwasher
which can cause rusting of some grades of stainless steel. Think of
the dishwasher as a giant battery with chemical cleaners inside and
two different dissimilar metals-- just like a battery. I have not
personally tested this theory, but if the interior is properly
grounded I think this problem could be minimized.
Fourth, a good alkaline dishwashing product should never cause any
problem with stainless steel. Using "green" products does not do
anything for you.
Fifth, the term "citric cleaner" can mean a lot of things. Lemon
scented cleaners should never be a problem, and
Citric Acid [link is to product info at Amazon] will never be
a problem. However, many "citric" cleaners have other chemicals that
can contain chlorides or other harmful chemicals for stainless.
d-limonene is used in many of these products, but I do not have data
on the possible affect of this on flatware. It is generally a safe
chemical coming from orange peelings (hence called a citric
cleaner).
Good quality flatware manufactured with good steel and passivated
after manufacture should not rust in a "normal" dishwasher cycle, as
has been pointed out in the many cases cited above. We would be happy
to discuss this with anyone who needs further information.
One thing to remember is to IMMEDIATELY fix any rusting that you see
on the flatware. If allowed to proceed to the point of "pitting" of
the steel you will never get it to stop recurring. Some products have
been mentioned that will eliminate the rust on the surface. There are
an number of other products on the market containing citric acid,
oxalic acid or phosphoric acid that do a good job of removing any
rust that appears. Leaving the rust on the surface will cause the
rust to grow like a disease.
And yes, you can just wash all of your flatware by hand in a good
detergent cleaner. This should never cause a problem, but if you
still see rusting you need to eliminate it as soon as possible.
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August 27, 2008
This information about flatware has been very helpful. i hate to
take the time to hand wash flatware but i may have to. from what I'm
reading good quality flatware is not sold anymore. my mom told me
that when she got married and set up her house in 1961 everything she
bought for the house was expensive because cheap products from China
were not being sold in the US then. looks like cheap Chinese made
products are not worth it after all. This is depressing.
good site though.
ann
Ann Chaput
consumer - Brockton, Massachusetts
August 31, 2008
Thank you for this informative site. I too have issues with the knife blades coming out of the dishwasher with pitting/rust spots. It drives me crazy! I'm embarrassed to use the silverware when I have guests. I was looking in to purchasing a more expensive set, but after reading others comments here I don't think it will be worth spending the money. I am so tired of the Chinese imports of inferior quality!! I hope these issues with poor quality control of Chinese products will bring some of our manufacturing back to the good ole US of A! I live in a suburb of Atlanta, have city water and have recently been using Cascade Extra Action detergent which has Dawn with Lemon Scent, I also use Jet Dry. I did find that if I used the Cascade Complete detergent it seemed to be worse at causing the pitting/rusting issues. I think I will try the basic Cascade to see I have fewer issues with pitting/rust.
Cindy Baranowski
- Atlanta, Georgia
September 10, 2008
I have noticed rust spots/stains on my brand new Oneida Icarus
flatware that last few months. Never had this problem before on my 23
year old set of Oneida flatware.
This stuff is most likely poor grade and poorly made metal from over
seas.
There is NO Quality control on a lot of this cheap flatware coming
from over seas.
Someone in the metal industry told me that poorly produced metal can
have a lot of impurities in it. A lot of the cheaply made flatware is
not good and has bad casting porosity.
I guess I'll get my flatware from Italy or France next time. Buyer
beware, it is not hard water but poor, cheap, metal and casting. You
get what you pay for. These companies now are going for fast profits
over reputation, name, and quality. They know what they are selling.
I won't buy Oneida again. Outsourcing cost them!
Chris Chubb
- Long Beach, California
September 30, 2008
I have two sets of stainless flatware that I have had for 20 years and never had any rust spots until we recently bought a new dishwasher. Now both sets are so full of spots that I am embarrassed to use them. It must be caused by the dishwasher because I am using the same detergent I have always used. I too, would like an answer to this problem!
Lynette Dunkel
- Santa Rosa, California
October 8, 2008
In the last 6 months, I have been through Oneida, Wallace, J.A.Henckels and Yamazaki 18/10 or 18/8 Stainless Steel Flatware. Each time I return them back to the store because of pitting and rust, mostly on the knive blades but other pieces have been affected. I realized the only common thread to be all were made in China. So how can we lobby against such inferior products? I am ready to use plastic throw aways as they look more presentable than my NEW rusty stainless steel. I have increased the amount I've paid for the silverware with each return thinking I was getting what I paid for; WRONG, all have the same problem. Is anyone positive that Mikasa is still made in Japan? Anyone have any problem with Mikasa rusting or pitting? My current Yamazaki set was made in China. Yamazaki also offers a set made in Japan that is very expensive. The only thing I see working right now is to keep returning the sets back to where we purchased them. Maybe the stores will have more influence than the customers. Any suggestions, would help!
Cindy Kelsey
- Toledo, Ohio
October 25, 2008
Glad to see I'm not the only one with this problem. I previously
had 20 year old Oneida flatware purchased with Betty Crocker
"points", so I'm sure it wasn't the highest quality...never had any
rust or pitting problems. Then, in May our house burned down and
we've had to replace everything. I bought a nice set of Oneida from
Kohl's. Had rusting from the very first washing. Returned it for a
refund and got a set of Gorham from Bed, Bath and Beyond...same
problem, especially with the knife blades. I've also noticed a brown
"gunk" on the blades at times, like one of the other posters
mentioned. I have been able to polish out the rust with a stainless
polish, but who wants to have to do that every time? There isn't a
country of manufacture on the flatware, but I have to assume it's
China.
My dishwasher is a cheapo Roper with a plastic interior (rental
house). I have city water that's not especially hard. I have used
Wal-Mart regular dishwasher detergent, added Jet Dry to try and stop
the rusting, and am now using Electrasol 2 in 1 gel packs, that have
Jet Dry added to the detergent. I've never used lemon scented
detergent because I don't like the smell. Since there's only two of
us, I usually only run a load of dishes every 2 or 3 days, but I
always rinse everything before loading. I'm thinking about scouring
the thrift stores or garage sales in search of some older flatware
that maybe won't rust.
By the way, since I've had to totally replace everything in my
household after the fire, I've been forced to buy almost everything
made in China. Even though I've bought higher end products, the
quality is awful in most cases...I wish I had my old stuff!
Lana Maturey
- Overland Park, Kansas
December 4, 2008
I have the same problem with my (7 year old) 18/8 Gorham; however,
it was NOT produced in China, but in Indonesia. Like the other
posters above, the problem is primarily with the knives. I have had
it in two different houses. The first house (where rusting began) had
a dishwasher that had a plastic lining and we were on well water, but
had a water softener. My current house has a dishwasher with an
enamel lining, and we are on public water, still with a water
softener, and still with the rusting problem.
Anyone think a water softener may contribute to the problem? I will
admit that the issues with my flatware may be my own doing... I am
wondering if any of you (like me) load your dishwashers without
pre-washing. Sometimes the dishes are in there overnight before being
washed...
Julie Pete
- St. Louis, Missouri
Hi, Julie. 18/8 will not hold an edge; therefore I think you will find that the knife blades are a lower alloy (check with a magnet), and more susceptible to rusting. As for the rest of your question, let's see if anyone has an experience to share.
Regards,
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Ted Mooney finishing.com Brick, New Jersey |
January 2, 2009
Everyone is off on this one. 18 refers to the chromium content, the 2nd number refers to the nickel content. 18/10 flatware has more nickel. More nickel means more strength. An 18/10 fork won't bend. It's the better quality stainless. Chromium is supposed to prevent rust, and nickel is resistant to rust.
My guess is that it's the iron in the water, which will show up as pretty normal on a test. BUT IRON DOES RUST--EASILY!
V. Rogers
stone quarry - South Rockwood,
Michigan
January 7, 2009
Hi, V. Thanks for participating but, no, everyone is not off :-)
The amount of nickel has almost nothing to do with the strength of the stainless steel. Heavy, that is, thick, flatware is resistant to bending no matter what grade of stainless it is made from; light, thin, flatware is not resistant to bending. When you pay more you generally get a heavier weight.
Regards,
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Ted Mooney finishing.com Brick, New Jersey |
Rainbow stains began to appear on all our 15 yr old Reed & Barton stainless, especially knife blades and tablespoons--began immediately after we purchased (in late 2008) new Kenmore Elite dishwasher with stainless steel interior. Never had problem with previous Kenmore with plastic interior. I understand this machine has Kenmore label, but is made by Whirlpool. Could have to do with detergent, poor rinsing, rinse agent, something about the drying cycle (haven't done too much experimenting yet), but we are wondering especially about the stainless interior.
Joseph Tarron
- Buffalo, New York
March 22, 2009
I had a new kitchen installed a few months ago. We are using the
same flatware we have used for over 10 years... the detergent hasn't
changed, only the dishwasher.
Yet suddenly, rust spots have started to appear!
I'm interested in the feedback above about the stainless steel
interior of the dishwasher causing an environment that can result in
chemical reactions...
Phil Le Cheminant
- Romsey, Hampshire, UK
June 11, 2009
For my nickel Ted Mooney has given the best info why bleeding occurs on 18/8 set with knives having 18/0 blades as the probable problem. All my knives had 18/0 magnetic blades and most are pitting. Our first set now about 38 years old was Towle made in Germany. We replaced some missing knives about 8 years ago and it came in made in Korea. My wife has been disappointed in the replacement knives since. However, while the German set have a little more finished look overall, the knife blades bleed rust like crazy. The Korean blades are still lustrous and almost no bleeding. I believe the 8 yr old blades would be bleeding now if they are going to do so. So the idea that the older is of greater quality as many have suggested, at least as far as the blade issue is concerned, may not necessarily be true. The old set does look a little more hand made but the Korean pieces are close enough for me (wife does not agree:). The shocker comes with replacement knives (from Replacements.com) are about $60 each for the German, whereas the Korean knives are about $18 each. We are looking to buy something to replace the whole set, but unfortunately it is hard to find very much made in USA. Even Oneida has closed its USA plant and only offers one ornate style still made in the USA (but not by Oneida). Most seem to have gone to Korea, Indonesia, china and Viet Nam. Some of which may be good quality but few made in USA and even Oneida is cagey about the issue but will tell you if you specifically ask if they have any made in the US but don't volunteer country of origin otherwise.
John Hopping
- Poquoson, Virginia
Yes i'm interested as well about the stainless interior as the same thing happened to us after switching dishwashers. we now have a GE Monogram (used twice and free) full stainless and now all of our Oneida 18/8 knives are getting rust spots . . . nothing else has changed except the dishwasher. i will ask my neighbor as well; they just picked up an LG with full stainless interior and see if they are running into the same problem yet.
Lee Fuller
- North Las Vegas, Nevada
August 14, 2009
I first posted in August 2008 about rusting/pitting of my knives. After reading other posts about the stainless interior dishwashers, I too have to admit that this began to be a big problem after we upgraded our dishwasher to a stainless-interior Kitchen Aid. When we had the noisy, builder-grade GE dishwasher this wasn't as much of a problem. It does seem like our new dishwasher doesn't vent the steam as quickly and that it takes longer for the dishes to dry. I've found that if I keep the handle down and don't overcrowd the silverware it helps reduce the amount of rust spots. I love the new dishwasher because it is soooooo quiet, but the rusting issue is frustrating.
Cindy Baranowski
- Atlanta, Georgia
Hi, we just got some Lenox flatware two weeks ago for our wedding. There are black spots on the knives after one or two uses. Hand washed. Lenox has tried to blame us in our email exchanges. But get this. THE KNIVES ARE MAGNETIC. Kitchen magnets stick right to the blades. Not so the forks or spoons. This means the knives are not 18/10 but 18/0. (according to what I read online the 10 stands for the percentage nickle in the mix. Adding the nickle takes away the magnetic properties). Is this fraud or what? These are $50 per place setting and are supposed to be 18/10 stainless.
Joel Middleton
- New Haven, Connecticut
Hi, Joel. 18/10 steel cannot hold an edge, so it is common procedure for the knife blade to be 18/0 (not that I am justifying that hand washed stainless is rusting).
Regards,
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Ted Mooney finishing.com Brick, New Jersey |
I work within the flatware industry and have found this discussion
very interesting. The following are some further explanations:
18/10 - 18% Chrome and 10% Nickel
18/8 - 18% Chrome and 8% Nickel
18/0 - 18% Chrome and 0% Nickel
13/0 - 13% Chrome and 0% Nickel
All of these steel alloys have various applications within flatware
production. 18/10 is the highest quality stainless steel. The high
percentage of nickel gives the product a silver like luster and also
makes the metal softer allowing it to be formed into more complex
shapes and decoration. The 18% chrome is what gives the product its
rust resistance, but the nickel adds a little further resistance.
This metal is now mainly used in fine flatware and is likely to be
more expensive and reserved for high end brands.
18/0 steel has almost the same appearance of 18/10 and almost
identical rust resistance, but is the 2nd best steel in terms of
quality. It is generally used for everyday flatware production. It
should hold up well under normal conditions.
Some people have mentioned knives being the most common item to rust.
That is because all knife blades are made from 13/0, not 18/0 as some
have suggested. This is a requirement (and has always been), as the
other alloys of steel are too soft to create a sharp cutting edge. In
the case of knives that are one piece in construction the entire
piece will be produced in 13/0. Unfortunately this makes knives the
most susceptible to rusting. Manufacturers are not required legally
to call out on packaging that knives are 13/0 as the majority of the
product material with a given flatware set is 18/10 or 18/0. However,
as noted they cannot mark a knife blade as 18/10 or 18/0 and usually
just mark it as "stainless steel".
As to the rusting problems people are having with flatware, there is
no doubt that conditions and usage play a role. It is also true that
the metal used will impact its performance. With a major shift from
18/10 to 18/0 steel within the industry the performance has suffered
overall, but the 18/0 of today should perform the same as the 18/0 of
past years. I think some people may be comparing 18/10 to 18/0 which
will certainly show a decrease is rust resistance.
I think the bottom line is that people have a right to demand that
their product holds up to dishwashing, particularly if the company
selling the product advertises that fact. However, the reality is
that there will always be a small percentage of defects (no matter
where the product is made) and a small percentage of cases where
conditions (water, pipes, dishwasher, detergent) impact the goods.
With the cost of Nickel increasing greatly in 2007 and 2008, many
companies could no longer afford to sell goods made in that material.
Most consumers will not be willing to pay the increased cost to
purchase 18/10 product. The additional expense of producing in the
USA is also something for which most consumers are not willing to
pay. Often the popular opinion is that things should be made in the
USA, but rarely does the behavior follow that opinion if there is an
additional cost to the consumer. We have seen companies that have
tried to brave it out with US production (and the higher prices
associated) go out of business. This is simply a symptom of changes
in this new global economy.
Quality is something that everyone expects and should demand, but
there is usually a price to pay for it and in the case of flatware
that cost is always increasing.
Hope this helps.
-Ross
Ross Patterson
- Cranford, New Jersey
I too have troubles with my Oneida flatware, 18-0, made in China, also supposed to be dishwasher safe. It does mainly spot the knives, but its not choosy, as its on the spoons, big spoons, but less on the forks. I have this set since May 5th, 09. This is my third set, but the others were cheaper. I have had discussed this problem with the company who installed the dishwasher. They have no answers at all, except to hand wash a new set. I got this set from Younkers, so its returnable. Its a discusting problem, as this was a $200.00 set. We live in a complex with 52 other apartments, and they say they have no complains yet. But due to the age group here 86-87 years old and much older, I doubt they would complain much. So there seems to be no answer to it at all. We have lived in this city 16 years, and it didn't happen until we movinto this complex. I use Cascade Complete, with soft water, but of course chlorined, but they tested the water and its safe. So I guess all I can continue to do from now on. is to hand wash or use plastic.
barb selander
- Ft. Dodge, Iowa
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November 17, 2009 I have bought everything from the most expensive SS flatware to the cheapest and.......they all rust in the dishwasher, period.(Especially the knives and now I know why.) In the military with different detergents, different dishwashers, different houses in different locations with different water quality; nothing makes a "difference". I think the only way to go is hand washing if you really want to keep them rust free. Of course, my family is NEVER going to go with the hand washing option!! I am going to try some of the tips I've seen on here for cleaning though. Thanks! Jan Klesh
November 18, 2009 We here in Canada seem to have the same rusting of the knives problem. I have a Miele dishwasher with silverware tray, so there is not one piece of cutlery touching the next. Water is soft so this cannot be the cause of the rust. My set is Cambridge Hemisphere pattern. I pull out the cutlery immediately after the wash cycle to minimize any water stains, but I still have to pass the knives over with a stainless steel powder and hard scrubbing to get off the spots on the sides and tops of the knives handles. Not terribly time-efficient. Seems there is no solution from all I've read above except hand washing - and that definitely won't happen with our hectic lives. Chava Charest 1 2 3
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