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letter 17977
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Trevor Crichton |
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+++ How to make bronze, etc. Mr. Crichton: Your response was very interesting, brief and to the point. I had often wondered how to make bronze and copper etc and it was by accident that I came upon this site. I decided - in my own small mind - that you must be a man of distinction!~ Thanx very much. Ruth C ++++ Hello, post number 2 is incorrect with the temperatures, please DO NOT post if you do not know what your talking about, its very annoying. Anyways I just thought I would post pretty much everything you would ever want to know about bronze: Bronze was developed about 3500 BC by the ancient Sumerians in the Tigris-Euphrates Valley. Historians are unsure how this alloy was discovered, but believe that . . . ---- Matthew D
++++ Actually, Matthew D, the question was answered correctly, insightfully and in timely fashion by Mr. Crichton.
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Matthew D.,
I do not appreciate your answer, as I understand you simply copied that text from another web page(http://www.americanbronze.com/WhatsBronze.htm).
What you seem not to understand is that brazing (what requires the metal to be heated below melting point, or 430°C (800°F)) is simply how to join to other metals with bronze. This has nothing to do with making bronze, and I suppose if you had actually read through and understood what you were plagiarizing, you would already know that.
Robert Z 
- Provo, Utah
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++++ Okay guys, so here I am trying to recall the two main ingredients of bronze with the help of the internet. Got some more questions for any of you out there that may have an idea as to the answer. How do we know where bronze originated from, how did they figure that they could get it from ore, how did they build these furnaces and generate those kind of heats, was there residual materials that needed to be moved? A web link will suffice if I'm asking too many questions thanks. Glen |
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Dear Matt,
You've got the right idea, bronze should include anywhere from 10-20% Tin and the rest should be copper. What the rest of these guys say are right on as well. You will need to find a way to heat the copper up to 1,000 degrees or more. Tin's melting point is less than half of what coppers is (around 480 degrees), but even a stove top can melt it... but don't try that. I'm not going to pitch you a whole bunch of crap about how you should never do anything dangerous or work with hot fires, i did it in my youth and never got harmed. but that's only because i was EXTREMELY careful and was always in a situation where i could get help if i needed it. i don't care what you're doing with the bronze either, as long as you're being creative and not hurting others then who cares?
Good Luck with your smithing,
Erick M
- NY, New York
I would recommend not using just copper and tin by themselves, but also adding a small amount of lead or zinc, or both. This will strengthen the bronze and give it a nicer finish.
Harry C
- Wellington, New Zealand
I would like to know how much lead or zinc should be added to a mixture to make the Bronze?
Cyrus C
- Akron, Ohio
I'm 13 and my dad an I are going to make bronze and i don't know what is right 1000*F or 800*F? Please reply soon.=)
Danny L
- Grand Marais, Minnesota
Hello, Danny! The internet can be useful for a lot of things, like getting pointed in the right direction and finding supplies. But you've already learned on this thread that one thing the internet isn't is an authoritative reference. You heard two different temperatures. Shall you determine the truth by who shouts the loudest or uses the most explanation points? Or maybe by what a third stranger says? Unfortunately, you can't turn strangers on the internet into an authoritative reference. You need to visit a library, get help from the librarian if necessary, and find the melting point in a metals book :-)
The American Society for Metals has a series of about a dozen oversize volumes which comprise "The Metals Handbook". If you can find a library that has it, you'll be amazed at the details available. Good luck!
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 Ted Mooney finishing.com Brick, New Jersey |
Whilst the second post in this thread may have
been accurate and to the point I feel it was rather discouraging in
its intent. A fifteen year old inquiring mind asks a question of
people who have experience to offer and is told flat out not to
bother trying anything as it can't be done. My personal experience is
that most non ferrous metals can be cast quite safely at home if a
little research and a lot of care is taken.
If the first poster is still looking I would start at
www.theworkshop.ca .The owner of that site is helpful, insightful and
above all else nobody tells him what he can and can't do.
regards,
Gregg S
- Auckland, New Zealand
+++++
I didn't read it that way at all, Gregg! I read that the boy was advised he would need to get a proper furnace, rather than trying to cast bronze in an aluminum soda can because the can would melt before the bronze. Maybe I was disposed to not read it your way because Mr. Crichton has patiently answered a thousand questions from students who rarely even take the time to say thanks -- and the last thing we need is for an adult who hasn't borne the load of answering a single question to come in and criticize him!
We have 10,000 student questions on line here, and receive 50 new ones every day. I don't have the time to answer them all myself so I am immensely grateful for Mr. Crichton's help! I'll wait to hear back from you about whether www.theworkshop.ca and its owner will be willing to start a public forum that we can direct a small portion of those students to; it would take a load off!
Ted Mooney
finishing.com
Brick, New Jersey
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++++++ I would like to use bronze sheet to make a pair of
chassis for valve (tube) amplifiers. If using steel I would
use 16 gauge. I have two questions for you experts; David B. Neale
++++++ I was wondering how to make bronze and happened upon this website. I'm 16 years old and my uncle (who's house I visit often) has a building full of tools, so I have a good bit of resources. I have plenty of tin and copper. I wanted to ask 3 questions: 1) How would I go about shaping the mixture? 2)How much of each materials should I add to make a strong, durable bronze? and 3)Would a blowtorch that reaches 1000-1500 F work to melt these materials? Corey M
+++++++ hi I'm will um I'm nearly 13 and i want to make bronze
could i make a fire in the ground and using a pump to blow
air into the fire whilst adding coal could i reach about
1000 degrees c i would be using a crucible please
help!!! WILL P |
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Hey Will just like yourself I'm 13 and to answer your question I don't think that well work. you might need a smithing kiln or an oven but I could be wrong, if so someone please correct me.
Zack H
- Willmar, Minnesota
I am 15 and for the last several years have worked in metallurgy with only a pit in the ground and have reached temperatures of up to and above 1500 degrees F using hard wood and some sort or blower weather a hair drier or a small fan,the blower I use has varied depending on desired temperature and what I have on hand my fire pit is just a 5 inch deep by about 3 feet in diameter hole in the ground with a wall of bricks about 2 and a half feet tall around it and with that simple set up I have melted copper and gotten hot enough temperatures to make Damascus steel and as warned you should be safe because I have been burned and help from an adult is best to have.
John W
- Montesano,Washington
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Ed. note: Thanks, John. That was terrific!
Wow. Lots of comments and recommendations. I created the article
for American Bronze as a reference for customers seeking general
information about bronze. As far as working with metals at home, no
problem. Many people do that.
As far as making metals at home, I would think that would require a
lot of research and effort to get the correct mixtures. Also using
scrap would require getting impurities out of each before using them.
Very time consuming.
I would recommend contacting a foundry that produces metals for the
industry. We used Everdure Bronze for statues that has a specific
copper, zinc, and some other contents. Other uses requires different
percentages of ingredients.
You can purchase small casting tools and equipment online. The number
one thing to remember is be very safe. Bronze melts at 1750 F and we
would pour our products at 2250 F. At these temperatures contact with
water would create an explosive action. Contact with your skin would
be very very serious. Please DO NOT ATTEMPT WORKING AT THESE
TEMPERATURES WITHOUT PROPER SUPERVISION, SETUP AND PROTECTION!
Otherwise, be creative, have fun, and learn.
John Paul
- Deltona, Florida
Hi Guys,
If you want to smelt your own bronze, and just want to have a go,
then this the following should be a good introduction.
This will lead to many questions.
In history bronze can be as simple as 90 percent copper 10 percent
tin, or it can have precious metal in it such as silver and gold,
with no tin to be seen at all (the Colossus of Rhodes was reputed to
be made from this alloy called black bronze).
Adding more tin will lighten the bronze 80/20 (bell metal) is almost
white (almost), but is brittle, and will shatter with thin
castings.
So for your purpose stick with the 90/10, this will make a very
durable bronze that has a goldy-brown colour, good for jewelry, and
other items.
This is something I created to test refractory materials :-
And this is probably as cheap and uncomplicated as bronze smelting
can get.
The furnace body shouldn't cost you more than $20, the crucible $13
(and is the smallest one I could get... just a materials test
remember), the tongs $13, and the expensive component is the JTH-7
Bernzomatic hose torch, and adapters to fit it to a standard BBQ
cylinder. You can borrow the BBQ cylinder from your Dad ;-)
The furnace body is made from a milk powder can (about the size of a
coffee can), a K26 fire brick, padded with some hi-duty kaowool, and
sealed with some zirconium paint (you could use kaowool hardener here
instead of the paint).
If you decide that you don't like melting metal and casting metal,
then you can give the heating components to your Dad next Father's
day, and give the furnace to a friend.
** Caution: This little furnace gets very hot very quickly, the melt
point of bronze is 800 Celsius, but the flow point is 100 - 200
degrees hotter.
** Note: Please season your crucible first, or it will shatter (see a
question about seasoning crucibles).
The procedure for this furnace for bronze is as follows :-
1) Fill your crucible to the brim with
borax
[link is to product info], and then tip it out.
This lines the crucible with "flux" and makes the metal flow
nicely.
2) Put your tin into the crucible (I like to do this first, as the
tin effectively lowers the coppers melt point).
3) Your copper goes into the crucible next. The best type of copper
for this operation is granulated, but small pieces will do as long as
the tin is covered. Put some more borax on top.
5) Light your furnace, and lower in your crucible (with tongs), put
the lid on the furnace. Check in about three minutes time.
** The following is an old trick that works, but if you don't feel
comfortable with it buy a graphite stirring rod.
6) Your bronze should be molten or very close. Get a green stick (not
a wet or turgid stick), and use this to stir your alloy. The
impurities will stick to the green stick. As an added bonus the stick
will turn to charcoal, and can be used as a stirring stick until it
disintegrates.
7) Your bronze is ready to pour into your mold (and that is a big
topic too).
That's it.
Oh and I can't state this enough, although the furnace is small, it
can still burn you very badly. If you don't feel confident don't
attempt this.
There are many casting groups on the net that will gladly assist you
in this hobby.
Regards Charles
Charles Anderson
- Mortdale, NSW, Australia
I was looking on how to make bronze for a school project and this was a site I found and it helped (some)
Bekah H
- Hilliard, Ohio
The melting point for tin is 449 degrees Fahrenheit. The melting point for copper is 1984 degrees Fahrenheit. Therefore, the melting point of bronze depends on what percentages of metal you're using; a high tin bronze will have a lower melting point than a low tin bronze. Hope that clears up any confusion; no one can tell you the melting point of bronze without first knowing the composition.
Ben Friesen
- Duluth, Minnesota
I'm doing a physics project on a material and I have chosen copper
and I need to do some work on the alloys so I just wanted to thank
the second post as he seems to be the only person who gave a straight
answer to the question, everybody keeps confusing things by changing
the temperatures from C to F or else giving answers nobody asked for
:S
to get 1000 C u will need a lot more than an oven or a normal fire :S
James B
- Northern Ireland
I am a 7th grader who needed to learn how to make bronze. Thank you Matt for asking that question so i wouldn't have to. Mr. D please be less curt.
Aileen s
- oakridge, Massachusetts
Hi I'm 15 years old and my name is dafydd.
I would like to make bronze making a hobby but i don't know much
about it yet.that's where i need your help.
I would like to know hot to make a furnace capable of melting copper
and tin as i don't know what materials to use. It would be helpful if
it was household items as i don't have a lot of cash.
Please make a list so i can use it and say where it all needs to
go.
Thank you.
Dafyddd E
hobby - united kingdom
I know that the BBC show, "What the Ancients did for Us" had an Egyptian episode in which they made bronze by making their own furnace, with foot bellows, and I was actually looking for more information on that, when I came across this site. Although they had a full safety team, they proved that it is possible to do in a backyard
Matthew Rusworth
- Bury St. Edmunds, Suffolk, UK
I am in Eighth grade, and we have been assigned projects that have to do with metals. I have chosen bronze. I wish to make my own, but am at a loss as to where to get the copper for the bronze. I have loads of tin in my home. I just need to know if anyone knows any websites or companies that will sell any copper.
Roberto
student - Louisville, Kentucky
You can find copper on line, Roberto, but if you only need a reasonable amount you can buy copper wire from most large hardware stores and strip the plastic insulation off. Copper wire is very pure copper, well over 99 percent.
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Ted Mooney finishing.com Brick, New Jersey |
Thanks Mr. Mooney. Do you know which websites might sell some copper? If not, I may try Hardware stores.
Roberto
student - Louisville, Kentucky
Onlinemetals.com is one.
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Ted Mooney finishing.com Brick, New Jersey |
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January 5, 2008 I have plenty of copper wire. Is there anywhere online I could buy some tin? Ed. note: ===> If not what are some items I could find the are made of tin (not Aluminum). Michael
Alexander
February 1, 2008 I am 15 and this is my first making bronze and I got all my stuff at Manards for $20. Aaron J |
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This should help people make lots of heat.
I'm not sure if this will work for melting bronze, but I'm a
blacksmith and I heat my steel with this.
You need: about 50ish bricks, not the cheapest, but you don't need
refractory bricks either; a metal tube, about 7 cm (3 inches) wide
and thickish walls; a cheap hair dryer; sand; and fuel, I use
charcoal.
1. Break on of the bricks in half.
2. Put a layer of sand on the floor.
3. Make a box with the bricks on top of the sand 3x3, using the half
brick in the bottom row in the middle of one of the sides.
4. Build up three or four levels and then make a dome over the
top.
5. Insert the metal pipe in though the gap at the base.
6. Pile sand up to the height of the pipe without blocking the
hole.
From there it's straightforward, put charcoal into forge, light, and
use hair dryer as air source.If done properly, the fire itself will
reach about 1100ºC (2000ºF), but your crucible will be a
few hundred degrees lower.
But like I said, this is what I use for heating lumps of steal, not
melting things (but I'm trying). Someone who knows about that will
have to tell you lot about that.
Oh, and Bricks: Maybe 50p Each, maybe a bit more.
Sand: if near beach, free, if not, cheap.
Metal pipe: Sorry, don't know, I had an old handrail that i cut into
pieces, but if you've got a good metal saw, go and nick a street sign
pole (No, don't, that was a joke)
Hair dryer: 10-15 Pounds (20-30 Dollars)
Charcoal: 2-3 Pounds the bag, and I use 2-4 bags every time.
Leonardo Lopez
- Montevideo, Montevideo, Uruguay
I've read on other Technical question posts that bronze can contain copper and tin basically, and that it would be a good idea to add lead or zinc to the mixture for a better finish and quality.This may be a stupid question but do you have to obtain copper and tin directly from a mine or can you use household items such as cans and pennies. I'm only 13 and I'm not very familiar with chemistry.
Brandon R
hobbyist - El Dorado, Arkansas
I get tin for about $18 AUD a kilo. I get granulated copper for
about $4 AUD a kilo. Copper can be found easily, however tin is best
bought from a metal merchant, as it is rarely used in its pure
form.
Whilst at the metal merchant you can buy 90/10 bronze ingots for
about $9 AUD a kilo. I prefer to alloy my own bronze as I can control
the amount of tin therefore the colour, and properties.
I like to add the tin to the crucible first, and cover with
granulated copper, this way I don't loose as much tin as
vapour.
My friend adds the tin after the copper has melted, and comparing our
bronzes, mine doesn't look as "pink".
Regards Charles
Charles Anderson
- Mortdale, NSW, Australia
Hi:
I m 9 years old and interested in making bronze this summer when I am
up at my grandparents' farm. My parents said they would help me
research and make bronze.
I read that adding water could cause an explosion. Are there any
other big safety concerns other than heat and getting burned?
Also, I read that you shouldn't let oxygen into the mix. Why is that?
Where can I go for a complete and trustworthy how-to?
Peter
Peter V
- Brooklyn New York
Hi, Peter. As mentioned earlier in this thread, your librarian can help you find an age-appropriate appropriate book on the subject. You won't easily get complete and trustworthy info on the free internet. Good luck.
Regards,
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Ted Mooney finishing.com Brick, New Jersey |
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April 7, 2009 another source of information might be to contact the art department of unlv. i am unsure of whether or not they cast metals on campus, but the sculpture department should be able to point you in a solid local direction of persons that use these materials. it is not 100% required but being able to observe a controlled pour is a great experience as well as a great reference point for when you strike out on your own. i used to assist in the sculpture labs at my former schools and some of the neighboring ones as well. one thing that all of the instructors i have had the pleasure of meeting shared was a great passion for sharing knowledge with young minds that were excited about the process. another portion of the equation is creating an investment (mold) that can withstand having a metal heated to this degree added without overdue stress. christopher ryan
I am doing a research project on metals, and I was wondering how you would cut it if you were going to make something out of it? Also, do you shape the bronze by melting it? Tina Bobz
January 8, 2010 Tina, in reference to your question about how to cut or
mold bronze.This depends on what you would like to
create. Peter Bochniak
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