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Letter 982 Gunsmith Bluing--- Can someone give me information on hot bluing of firearm parts so as to get a factory blued finish. Have tried cold bluing but doesn't seem to be as durable as factory bluing jobs. Information on the chemicals needed, temperatures required, tank design etc. How to obtain the difference in colour from blue to dark black. Stephen M [last name deleted for privacy due to age of
posting]
From the Chemical Formulary of 1941
There are many proprietary solutions for blackening of steel and stainless steel. See our directory for chemical suppliers.
Gun Metal finish on Brass The brass is polished, buffed, washed, lightly scoured using water and pumice, nickel plated, black nickel plated, lightly scoured, again black nickel plated, lightly scoured, rinsed, dried and lacquered. In scouring the black nickel deposit, use a soft steel section wheel and little pumice. Black nickel plating bath [Note: J.G. Poor (referenced below) advises against arsenical baths for safety concerns. It is also very difficult to analyze and maintain the components]. From Metal Finishing, 1943, J.G.
Poor The black deposit from this bath occurs in a narrow current density range, so racking will become important. It is a thin deposit, but you can rub it with an oily rag to even up the color. Metal finishing is an art and a science, requires specialized techniques, and is now governed not only by common sense (The layer of prejudices built up before the age of eighteen-A. Einstein), but by statutes designed to conserve public and worker safety. All applicable natural, environmental and safety laws must be obeyed. It is much more effective to find out what these laws are before attempting a job, than to reflect on how easy it would have been to determine them in the aftermath of a workplace accident.
Steve, As a part time gunsmith, I can tell you that most people have NO IDEA of how to reblue guns. Most blue jobs require special heated tanks, burners, special salts, and a lot of hard work. Surface preparation of the metal is a key factor because the bluing will enhance any flaws in the metal. Polishing of the metal becomes a prerequisite to a bluing job. Cleaning of the metal with solvents and a thorough degreasing to remove oils and animal fats in the polishing compounds also becomes a key issue. Most home enthusiasts have neither the time or knowledge to duplicate a professional bluing job. If you must attempt it, contact Brownells [Montezuma, Iowa] for their catalog. These people supply the firearms industry and shooting enthusiasts with parts, tools and bluing equipment and chemicals. They have some pretty good 1 step bluing kits using chemicals called Oxynate #7, Dicropan IM, Oxpho Blue and if you want to attempt a full HOT BLUE NitreBlue. Be aware of the fact that some of the older side by sides and over unders have only silver solder holding the ribs and barrels together and if you overheat the heated tanks, you could come back to 4 separate pieces instead of a fine old shotgun. Opt for a cold blue and a lot of elbow grease. It's a lot safer. Leave the hot blue for the pros. You could probably have the job done professionally for about $125 to $175. Probably less than what it would cost you to get the chemicals and equipment together! Tom S
[last name deleted for privacy due to age of posting]
If you have a directory for finishing products and techniques I would be very interested. Our company produces steel furniture and sculptuary. We have recently tried out birchwood-casey bluing and like the concept. Thank you Tim G
[last name deleted for privacy due to age of posting] Ed. note: Our "Chemicals & Perishables Directory" is accessible via the buttons below.
I have been practicing the trade of gunsmithing since 1963. Unless you have some money and time to spare, have your firearms refinished by a pro. This process takes several years of experience to do right. If you want a detail explanation, I'll be glad to help. Always remember that safety is paramount. Tommy Burttschell
-- Hot bluing is used by the makers of Lionel trains for years with a high quality finish on tin parts not steel. I am trying to get similar results with cold bluing with NO success! I will try the Chem. formulas listed here. Thanks for the recipes / formulas.. Paul B
[last name deleted for privacy due to age of posting]
-- Some years ago I used a solution of potassium nitrate, caustic soda, and distilled water heated to 290 degrees F, to reblue a colt 1911 pistol. This solution worked well but depends on correct polishing and degreasing of all parts to be blued. Alas I can not find my notes of the exact proportions of ingredients, to obtain the super saturated solution required, can any one out there shed any light. Maurice S [last name deleted for privacy due to age of
posting]
After reading the comment from Maurice, I also used to have a formula for hot bluing. It was sodium hydroxide (caustic soda) and ammonium sulfate, I think. It could have been potassium nitrate. I too, cannot find my notes. I did find the four page "how to", but not the salts needed. This was from a gunsmithing class back in the 60's. The instructor was a graduate from Lassen college gunsmithing school. Anyone know of it. My notes indicate a heating of 275 degrees F. CJ CJ Duerksen
The above two posts partially explain part of what makes hot bluing so dangerous. The boiling point (flash point) of water is 212 degrees yet these baths operate at 275 -290 because the solution is so "salty" with caustic soda. Water evaporates very fast at these temps and the evaporation loss must be made good almost constantly. But if a slug of plain water finds itself in a pocket of 275+ solution it can instantly flash to steam literally exploding this 275 degree concentrated caustic onto everyone.
-- You can get this from a druggist to make hot bluing, spirits of niter 3 drams, tincture of iron 3 drams, sulphur 1 dram vitriol 2 drams, corrosive sublimate 1 dram, nitric acid 1/2 dram,copperas 1 dram, and distilled water 12 ounces. However I haven't tried it yet but I hear it works good, but I don't know what temp. to run it at. Bill R
[last name deleted for privacy due to age of posting]
-- Bill, have you actually asked your druggist for chemicals like this? 50 years ago most druggists probably could and would sell this to you, but I've lived several different places in the last 25 years and haven't run into a druggist who would sell chemicals to the public. Maybe I've been living in the big city too much.
You may have been able to get this from a druggist when I was a boy, except, what with the American Civil War going on, all this stuff was in short supply. I doubt that one in one hundred of today's druggists would even be able to give you the chemical formula of these ingredients without having to look it up, but nitric and sulfuric acid (vitriol) are things you won't get from a druggist. They are supposed to help people with their health, not help them to the emergency room.
-- Dear Sirs: In answer to Stepen M: I been bluing for many years, with many products and methods , using very different formulas,but at this moment for me the better is oxynate #7 from Brownells , polish the part very well, like an artisan, be patient, and left the part at least 45 minutes in the tank, and please let me know the result, ah, don.t forget to read gunmith kinks #1 good luck: federico quiros
I have a 1952 edition of "General Metals" by John L. Feirer that has a section on applying a finish to steels. I have not tried any of these (don't know where to get the supplies) and I do not know how well they will work. However for a Black finish: 1 ounce sulfur in 3 ounces turpentine. Heat solution in a pan of water.; For a Blue color: 2 ounces antimony chloride, 1 ounce gallic acid, and 2 ounces iron chloride in 5 ounces water. ; For a brown color: 1 ounce copper sulfate and 1 ounce sweet spirits in 15 ounces distilled water. I would appreciate any comments about these formulas. Dan D
[last name deleted for privacy due to age of posting]
Why do we keep telling folks about formulas that existed years ago? Yes, a lot of them work but only with experience time and money. Mainly experience. I have operated my own shop for 35 years. Before that I was raised in this trade by my father and grandfather. Both of them "Masters" of the trade. Several of the old formulas were used by them, but with the advent of pre-mixed chemicals from several suppliers, all the old remedies could be thrown out the door. Anyone can copy the finish that any mfg. puts on his firearms. All it takes is TIME and MONEY. Each supplier furnishes detailed instructions for their product. Follow them to the letter and you won't be disappointed. Stop and think about this for a minute. If the older formulas were so great then why don't we use them today? Because what is available on the market is the best that can be purchased. If you aren't willing to spend approximately $1000.00 minimum and many hours of practice, then take your firearm to a professional and have him do it. If anyone would like to respond to these remarks I would enjoy talking to you. Tommy Burttschell
You get no argument from me, Mr. Burttschell -- I think you are 100 percent right, not only with respect to gun finishing, but all metal finishing. Suppliers started with the half-century old formulas, then spent decades improving them. And they recover that investment through selling the formulation at a markup. If people don't wish to pay the markup, or they would rather play with their own formulations, that's fine. But they can't realistically expect to find the results of decades of expensive proprietary research for free on the internet.
-- I agree with the gentlemen regarding refinishing formulas. I have tried many of them over the years and with the exception of molten salts for straw coloring the new methods are much safer and produce superior results. No matter what product you use the metal preparation phase is the most important. I attended a course years ago and learned that Smith & Wesson feels it take 15 years for someone to become a master polisher. That's doing it every work day, all day! Mark Stoffel
I stumbled across this link in search of hot gun-bluing supplies. We are interested in setting up a small scale business in our area after being involved with it with a friend in Florida. There appears to still be a high demand for quality hot bluing, especially at the local level. Many don't wish to ship their firearms out of the area. Many here still believe in contact at the personal level when it comes to goods or services. So, if there is anyone out there that can help us find a web site or information on any companies that offer the supplies to set up for a hot bluing business, please let me know. Thanks Jill Seagle
Hello, Jill -- You'll readily find suppliers in our Directory of Equipment or Directory of Chemicals. The problem isn't in trying to find someone who is interested in selling chemicals and supplies! The problem is in establishing your operation in a way that doesn't terrify them about their potential liability if they sell you this stuff. Show them the industrial facility where you will put the equipment, the protective gear that your people will be wearing while doing the bluing, the shelves full of books about the topic, and your 'vanity wall' with certificates from Hazmat training sessions -- and they will be very eager to sell to you.
At the present time I have just retired, and was thinking of going into gun repair with my son-in-law who will be getting out of the Navy soon.We would be looking into restoring guns.We are looking for any information on the how gun bluing is done (hot bluing that is) any information would be of great help to us. Books,type of material , type of tools etc. Robert M
[last name deleted for privacy due to age of posting] Ed. note: Our "must have" book list is a good start to such a library, Also please see our FAQ on Black Oxide vs, Cold Blackening.
-- I'd like to thank all of the responses here. I have been saving some victims of neglect myself. I bought a cold chemical blue kit and have had decent results. After careful prep work, and I mean tedious ,hours of prep work, I still believe that no matter how fine the finished product, If you don't keep the weapon cleaned and oiled you'll be right back where you started. It is important also that those of us who know, teach the less informed in the art of tool and toy care. one more note on all of this. Be very careful about the decision to strip and refinish any older gun or any other surface for that matter, you may seriously reduce its value. DANIEL S
[last name deleted for privacy due to age of posting]
Yes, Daniel, a blackened finish offers virtually zero corrosion protection; it is the oil that you put on it that provides the protection.
Bluing gun parts. Stein Eric B [last name deleted for privacy due to age of
posting]
I have been looking for information on reblueing firearms because I have a lot of older weapons this information put out in this site is the best that I have seen. I think I would like to try some cold bluing on a DD barrel I have if any one could give me a good product name and the best thing to strip the metal with I would be grateful. Its nice to find other people interested in guns . GOOD SITE!!!!!!! Barry W
[last name deleted for privacy due to age of posting]
Anybody have any tips on cold bluing the end of the barrel? I have a Taurus M605CH (2" .357 Magnum Revolver) that seems to lose the bluing from barrel end after every twenty rounds. I've learned how to get pretty good results using a bluing pen, but retouching is getting tiring. Oh, for those of you considering touch up work, be careful of the original finish, cold-blueing products can strip it pretty fast. John S
[last name deleted for privacy due to age of posting]
I SEE A LOT OF OTHER PEOPLE ARE IN THE SAME BOAT AS I. HAS ANY ONE ELSE DISCOVERED THE "JOY" OF RUST BLUING?. IT'S NOT THE EASIEST THING TO DO, BUT IT IS SAFE AND CAN BE DONE IN THE KITCHEN. RESULTS ARE VERY PRETTY IF YOUR A LITTLE PATIENT. SEE BROWNELLS CATALOG. BILL HARDING
Could you tell me how to fill in Rust pits on a barrel to prepare it for bluing...I bought a Mauser 98 and it had rust pits under the stock not very many but with the new stock it shows... George F
[last name deleted for privacy due to age of posting]
- For George F's question about welding out "pits" on his Mauser 98 barrel. You would have to strip the barrel of its color by turning it in a lathe. Using a fine tooth file, cut just the surface to new clean base metal. Use a carbide burr to burr out those areas of pitting. Last step? degrease in a caustic cleaner. Now find Buy some 4130 copper flashed welding rod, smallest diameter you can get.Take the 4130 rod with you to someone who does "TIG" welding. Make sure he preheats your barrel to deep straw before he starts using the rod to fill your burred out pits. He has to keep the barrel hot, stopping to reheat if necessary. After all pits are filled, you have to heat the whole barrel up to 800 F to 900 F and hold at that temp for five or so minutes. This will help normalize the thermal shook between the barrel and the filled pits. Hand file down the filled pits til flush with the rest of the barrel. Back into the lathe and turn. Now here is where you need to file and sand paper the barrel to approximate the original barrel surface texture. When your satisfied, you can see if hot bluing gives you the appearance you desire. if the welds show? You might have to have the barrel rust blued. That's all there is to it. Or...Find a professional restorer and save your mind. Michael H [last name deleted for privacy due to age of
posting]
- All I am seeing here is real old formulas and Brownell's #7.I would like any response anybody has on Unibath bluing system? I want to add bluing to my shop but I want what is best for me AND my customers. #7 salt are REAL corrosive, I mean they will eat porcelain tops off of cook stoves. This is a big responsibility to have around with kids in the neighborhood. I don't restore antique firearms since that take a special type of gunsmith (my clients hunt deer and turkey) so I need a good set up. Thanks for any replies. David S
[last name deleted for privacy due to age of posting]
- i work part time for a local gunsmith and my job consists mostly of cleaning and bluing. the key factor for a pleasing finished product is the polishing. sanding or polishing to about 600 will leave a beautiful finish. hot bluing on a small scale (less than 6-10 guns at a time) seems to be expensive because of the tanks salts and propane required. however for a single gun rust bluing might be the answer to your problem. it is time consuming but leaves a satin luster just like on fine English doubles and is more durable brian smith
. I have been an avid Winchester collector for many years and I'm looking for detailed instructions on the process of rust bluing used by Winchester and others. I'm not looking to do Rust Bluing, just want to know the process and what chemicals were used. Can anyone point me to information on how it was done? Jerry C
[last name deleted for privacy due to age of posting]
. I started researching rust bluing in 1963 and am still going! This method gives the best finish in my opinion. I have a lot of stuff on the subject including some original documents from Vickers Ltd . The book Firearm bluing and browning by Angier gives many solutions, try the Swiss arsenal formulae, i have an original bottle of this that i was given in Bern in 1979. It works but i like mixing my own! When you have the parts polished hold them under a slowly running hot tap and polish with 600 Wet or Dry paper when the water 'wets up' the complete surface dry with tissue and apply solution . Use cotton wool held in a clothes peg soak the wool in solution but squeeze most back into the bottle! Don't get solution on skin and don't touch the steel. Don't bother with getting a mirror finish on the steel just get all the "Tool marks" going the same way ! let coated parts rust in a warm place until red rusty this may take 24 hours! Boil parts in soft water repeat soft water for ten minutes. Then remove wipe dry and allow to cool. Rub off black dust with oil free steel wool. You will be quite disappointed to see almost no effect . If you have a greyish tint all is well , recoat the parts and repeat the process.When rubbing off the black oxide dust do a thorough job especially in corners etc. After 5 to 7 passes you should have a durable blue black finish that can even be burnished with a fine revolving wire brush. I promise that when you get the hang of rust bluing you will never bother with cold blue again apart from touching up.This is NOT a difficult process, you can even blue parts without a tank by holding the rusted parts in the steam from a kettle .I have even blued 12 gauge barrels this way as you get no water in the rib joints.FN Browning finish soft soldered barrels like this. Often as the blue starts to form the black dust can be rubbed off with a wet cloth instead of steel wool,try small STEEL wire brushes instead of steel wool if you want, don't use brass brushes they leave a brass film . When the blue looks OK still give one more pass but boil for a little longer , say 5 minutes more to stop after rusting. The rusting periods will take longer of course as the protective coat builds up . When finished i coat the parts with motor oil or underbody protective wax then leave for 2 days to let the finish "set". In 36 years of hobby gun restoring about the hardest job has been typing this with one finger!! I hope this has been of help. Has anybody got detailed information on the EXACT rust bluing as carried out by DWM ,Mauser, ERFURT,Sauer und Sohn and other arsenals? I have steam chambers and copies of the W+F BERN, RSAF Enfield,HAMMERLI, and other firms such as BRNO. Apart from unpublished formulae i would like to know how complex parts could be so smoothly rust blued. RSAF Enfield MAY have used fine husks or powdered walnut shells to "Scratch off" the black oxide dust . DWM MAY have used tumbling barrels with powdered Arkansas stone mixed with sawdust. Has anyone tried using a cartridge case cleaner for this purpose? Good luck to anybody starting out on rust bluing i hope you have as much fun as i have had over the years . To get you started here is the 1877 W+F BERN solution that works well. Later solutions were similar but with a little copper sulphate added:Ferric chloride solution {29%?} 66 grams Mercuric chloride 18 grams, Alcohol 20 grams, Nitric acid 15 grams, Distilled water 1 litre. Dissolve the Mercuric chloride in the alcohol first and add the acid last .Better still have a druggist mix it for you. NEVER plug the bottle tightly as it tends to ferment a bit at first I have used this solution for many years without trouble but take no responsibility for it.GOOD LUCK! T H Deary
Thanks, Mr. Deary. Readers should know that mercuric chloride is, of course, a mercury salt. Here in the states we can't even get mercury sealed within a glass thermometer anymore, so it may prove difficult to buy loose quantities of this toxic mercury compound.
. I have been experimenting with Rust bluing, and I believe I've found a way that is working well. I tried mixing my own solution but they didn't work well (and were a hell of a lot more expensive) than using the "Mark Lee Express Blue #1" from Brownells. It comes with good instructions. The Roy Dunlap book on Gunsmithing gives several formula's, but the cheapest way to get information is to get the Metal Finishing" Magazine reprint from Brownells - it's only about a $1. The Big expense is a tank a burner large enough to put a barrel in $300 bucks or so. But if all you're doing is pistols you can boil them in a pot on the kitchen stove! Go ahead and buy the larger carding brush from brownells, you'll have trouble finding bristles soft enough locally. Liberon Steel Wool is made without oil and is MUCH better to use than oily stuff you normally buy. Degrease thoroughly, and don't leave the Lee solution on too long or it will pit your metal. After 5 or 6 passes it will start to look like what you want. I think if you weren't doing rifles you could probably get started from scratch for less than $50 bucks. You need the Lee solution, a carding brush, degreaser, degreased steel wool, and something to boil your parts in. Good luck David R. Jones Jr.
. This may be the equivalent of preaching heresy, but can anyone direct me towards a temporary gun sight blacking product, something to take the glare/shine off my foresight and shoulders of my backsight? Years ago I had an aerosol of Gun Sight Black made by Browning, but cannot get it now. I fire competition pistol in the Irish Army, with the pistol having to be holstered after each practice, with the resultant shining of the sights. I am currently burning rags soaked in burnt oil to blacken the pistol. - help!!! Gregory O'Keeffe
. RE: Sight Blackening: Creedmoore Sports of CA sells RIG Blackout Site Black Spray or a Gun House Carbide Lamp, either will work well if you can't find a Butane lighter sooty enough or have plastic sights. David. R. Jones Jr.
. I was just at a muzzle loader shoot this weekend. I ask the old timer's there about browning. They responded that the old method of browning was performed by using stale urine. Sounds gross but they all sweared by it. According to them it was rubbed into the barrel, allowed to set for a period of time, the rinsed of and dried. The process was repeated until the desired finish was achieved. I suppose if you talked to someone or looked it up you could find the ingredients of urine and make this solution, or use what nature has given you. Chris LaMaster
. my question is for mr.tommy burttschell the master gunsmith I am wondering what is the difference in polishing grits for blueing , i don't have trouble with my blueing staying on the weapons but i just haven't got the shines that i would like and i was hoping that mr. burttschell could send me in the right direction on the grits or another method .
. Hi, I see you haven't had a reply from the respected master gunsmith so I thought maybe an answer from a S&W Academy and Beretta school graduate with 30 yrs gunsmithing experience may be helpful. Just as in sanding wood the different grits will impart different finishes on the material ie: the lower grit rating such as 240 will leave a rougher finish on the metal and the higher the grit rating the finer the finish or as you put it"shinier" the finish will be. Excellent polishing compounds are available from Brownells Inc. Many gunsmiths will for a field grade blue only finish the metal ending with a 400 grit polish, using rougher grits and then working up to the 400 polish then degreasing, bluing, neutralizing and lubricating. It is possible to obtain mirror finish polishing using Tripoli and jeweler's rouge [link is to product info at Amazon] or Fabuluster the later two of these polishes are used by Jewelers to impart mirror finishes on Gold,Silver and Platinum. be careful with these polishes as they will lap into the metal and must be cleaned thoroughly before any finish is applied! You didn't mention what type of bluing you are using ie; rust, hot salts, liquid or dry chemical. This is important as many chemical liquid compounds have acids designed to etch the metal to assist the chemical blackening ingredients achieve their means and will dull the luster of the finish when applied and no matter how shiny the finish is when the chemical is applied the end result will be a dull finish. If you are using Hot salts bluing the temperature of the salts are of utmost importance ie; overheating the salts will not only harm the bath but will also cause reactive damage to the metal you are trying to blue. There are many metal alloys that will respond differently to all sorts of bluing some metals will take a deep blue at lower temperatures than others and some cast metals are copper bearing and and will come out of the bath with a reddish cast, sometimes raising and lowering the temperature of the bath or cooling the metal in a cold water bath between submersion in the salts will help and sometimes not. Many cast metals you will play the devil and it will never blue! Also different heat treating methods are used on firearms and this will affect the way the blue "takes" some frames or slides only had the intended area heated and air hardened and this makes for a super hard surface and the bluing sometimes will not be even. I don't care for the liquid chemical blues and always use hot salts blue or rust blues for firearms. As for the pretty rainbow colors on many shotgun receivers, best leave this to the nuts like myself with the high temperature ovens, cyanide and blow pots! Send these receivers to a pro for the color case hardening! The key to beautiful finishes on metals is Polish and cleaning before heading to the tanks. Gunsmiths use many different types of wheels ie; wire, muslin, felt, stitched, loose and wheels of different diameters loaded with polishing compounds and spin them at speeds from a few hundred rpms to three to four thousand rpms, and you can take this to the bank! It is easier to take metal away than it is to put it back. My advise is to practice on cheap junk guns before you jump on that gun your Grandad gave you before he passed on! It is difficult for a beginner using a buffing wheel not to drag screw holes or round off corners or remove markings!, this makes for a repulsive finished product! Many times I would liberate paint stirrer sticks from the paint store and glue silicon carbide sandpaper of the desired grits to the sticks and use these to polish flat surfaces to keep everything flat, and while using the buffing wheels on the barrel keep the work moving at different angles to the wheel and DO NOT SLOW DOWN FOR PITS! as you will make dips in the barrel that are noticeable when sighting the firearm! Bluing will not hide any metal surface defect! Practice and experience are the best teachers and those who are afraid learn are just like my Uncle Clarence, we go bird hunting and he hardly shoots from fear of missing and being laughed at! Needless to say if it weren't for the Piggly Wiggly he would have starved years ago. In these days of mass produced stamped-out and Polymer framed
firearms it seems that workmanship and pride in beauty and
craftsmanship is slowly ebbing away. Those of you who are interested
in gunsmithing will find the best teachers in the library or book
store many of the authors are dead and gone but were thoughtful in
leaving their priceless knowledge behind.These books may not be on
the shelf but may be ordered, also check Many inferior gunsmiths (parts changers) do not understand metals, heat treating, fit and function, and do not care to learn and unless Sony comes out with a Gunsmith Playstation game they will probably die just as clueless as they were born. My advise to them is do something simple like pushing a camel through the eye of a needle or play the stock market and leave the gunsmithing to the guys who are never to old to learn!! Best of luck to our future gunsmiths, I hope our government will not outlaw the ownership of firearms and press the trade into demise. Respectfully Submitted Timothy Bell
. this is to timothy bell lake city south Carolina thank you for that info that will be very helpful to me i am just starting out (a part changer) but i am and have always been interested in guns and how they work and the making of the barrels etc. i am one of those that will never be to old to learn new ways and stuff . i am learning a lot about the metals and that just because there are two tauros pt92/99 9 mm and they look alike that doesn't mean that they will blue the same or polish the same. i have came across this . thank you mike lamb mickael dale lamb
. In regards to the proper bluing or browning of firearms, the most important process is the degreasing and removal of all oxides and pitting. Slow rust bluing requires the solution to touch the bare metal surface of the firearm parts and will not penetrate a film of oil or old bluing which would cause a patchy undesirable finish. A high polish is not required because the acids in the bluing solution will etch the metal surface to give a pleasing satin finish. To start the process of bluing, have all your equipment ready at hand. After polishing, coat the parts with dish washing detergent and scrub in hot water. Place the parts in your tank and boil in a solution of Washing Soda [link is to product info at Amazon] (sodium carbonate) and hydrated lime (calcium hydroxide). Boil for about 20 minute as this will turn all the oil and grease on the parts into soap and will clean the parts thoroughly. From this point on, wear gloves when handling parts to keep the
oils in your skin from contaminating the parts. Remove the parts and
let cool until comfortable to handle and wipe the parts with a cotton
ball dampened with a 7% solution of hydrochloric acid (HCL). This
will neutralize the carbonate and lime on the parts and also act as a
pickle or "kick in the ass" to activate your bluing solution. Moisten
a cotton ball with bluing solution, underline moisten, and coat the
parts with even strokes. Place parts where they can be exposed to the
atmosphere on all sides. After a couple of hours you will see a coat
of rust forming on the parts.This is good and humidity has a lot to
do with it. The higher the humidity, the better the coating. When the
parts are covered with a good coat of rust, boil the parts in a CLEAN
bath for 20 to 30 minutes. Now your parts have turned black. Remove
this coating with #000 oil free
Steel Wool [link is to product info at Rockler] and recoat the
parts with solution as before. DO NOT make more than one pass over
the parts or you will wipe off the small amount of oxide of the
previous pass. Each time you make a pass, you will notice the parts a
little darker. Sometimes you may get a good color after 6 passes.
Other times it may take as many as ten. It all has to do with the
humidity in the air. After your last pass, add washing soda to the
boiling water to neutralize your solution and prevent any after
rusting. Immediately after removing the parts from the last bath,
coat the parts with WD40 or Marvel Mystery Oil [Adv.
Marvel Mystery Oil (32 oz.)
Slowly add the acid to the water stirring constantly in a three litre beaker. When mixed, place the beaker in a larger vessel and pack the outside of the beaker with ice. Add cast iron chips until no more reaction takes place. Remove the beaker and let warm to ambient temperature and add more chips. When no more bubbles are formed, the solution is complete. You now have a muddy mess but this will change. Pour the liquid into a gallon brown glass jug and set aside. After a couple of weeks, the solids in suspension will have settled out and a clear yellowish liquid will remain. Carefully pour the clear liquid into brown bottles until the bottom material in the gallon jug starts to move. Discard the rest. This mixture is cheap to make and will keep forever. Also, there is enough for several hundred guns.Good luck. David F. Fiola
+ To Mr. Lamb.
To: Timothy Bell
Tommy Burttschell
+ Gentlemen: I have read all of your excellent formulae for gun bluing or coloring whatever. You need chemicals right? Well, I am now a lawyer by profession, but more than a decade ago, in my high school days, when I used to practice gunsmithing (making guns so to speak), for gun coloring, I only need a rug, emery cloth, junk oils, and fire. No more. And the metal coloring would stand even to the best and priciest guns, commercially available, I have ever seen. Of course the secret is a gunsmith's secret, that was passed on generations thru generations. Good luck amateurs! Atty. Johan A. Tabuzo
+ With respect to the attorney in the Phillipines..Heat bluing is an old process and requires very little skill or special training. It can be done with most steels and the temperature will dictate the color of blue. Quenching in oil is said to 'set' the color. There may be some very old family secrets you have but heat bluing is fairly well known. Good luck in the courts. William Stanley
+ I recently had a crash course in tinkering with old guns. Since I came out of it with a finish, beginners might play with old cheap guns like this. I wouldn't recommend playing with anything you already like the look of ! (lol) I recently made a "lottery ticket" purchase of an old lever action. Of the two owners in a gun store I was browsing, a customer wanted to sell an old Marlin. Since that owner present grades only handguns, it would have to wait for the next day. One day off work was too much, and I had my chance to look at it. The action worked, but was stiff, and small wonder. It had been SPRAY PAINTED. (Yes, you read that right !! Cheap, Black Spray paint!!!). The bore wasn't 100%, and I didn't have "Mr Goodwrench" with me. (one of two "mentors" in anything mechanical. YOU know the type...lol) Since all my friends are huge gun collectors, go figure I wanted to get a really good gun, really cheap, and have a decent outcome, win bragging points. Keep in mind this thing had all the metal (even the interior action....arrrgh!!!) spray painted. If I got a decent coating on, anyone can. I took my snap decision to Mr goodwrench. He wasn't home, wife was, I proceeded to disassemble the lever action as best I could. Mr Goodwrench looked the numbers and model up, measured barrel, etc, and pronounced it a good find, if fixed. He liked it. I got the stocks off, and we inspected the metal underneath in its entirety. Clearly, it became apparent the previous owner had removed the stocks, sanded them (beautifully, I might add. He must have worked with wood. He must have sanded the rust off the metal, and spray painted it, thinking gun finish was "special paint"...arrgh!) Well, you can all picture this: while I'm inspecting a loose rear stock, Mr GW completely disassembles the action and puts it all in a big ziploc bag. I got an old half gallon of paint stripper, and made a rough tank out of aluminum foil, big enough for barrel and parts. In several minutes, the paint sang off. If you want to strip an old cheap gun of liberally applied spray paint in seconds, this is the way to go about it. No muss, no fuss. After cajoling rust off as best I could, the heavy pitting on the top of the barrel that showed, as well as both flat side plates of the action area, was apparent. This thing might damned well shoot, the more the action was oiled and worked, CRISP trigger. But it wasn't ever going to impress the eye. I went for cheap functional, and just wanted "everyman" blueing to cover this 50 dollar find that had lain rusting in a basement for 50 years, in case it worked. We're talking wal-mart Birchwood Casey here folks. I am so happy to see everyone talking about sandpaper, I thought I was crazy trying it on the pitting. I had thought wet dry finish-paint-rub grit was in order, but I kept reaching for ever heavier grit in the assortment I had purchased. I accidentally had 400-something as my roughest, and I was wishing for much grittier. The BirchWoodCasey stripper works well. As quick as the paint stripper removed the paint, the BWC stripper removed what blueing was left in places. After rather vigorous sanding, something resembling a decent shooter started to emerge. I have to go back and sand out a little more in a few places, but the results of six to ten coats, whatever, as many as it takes, isn't too bad. I use tiny bits of cheap sponges, a little glob I rip off a big old cheap one. It works equally well for stripper or bluer. Careful with the little sponge when applying the blueing. Try not to scrub with it, or you'll just loosen up the oxidation you're shooting for. I dint know all this till AFTER I was done. I was scared at first when I saw what looked like RUST....but once oiled with gun oil liberally...it looks okay. I know, you can see where it was pitted, but this thing was so horrible, yet the action so glass smooth and trigger so crisp, I had to try. I found out it put one inch groups or better at thirty yards, and I live in heavy hill/brush area. 30/30's are well respected around here, and having a "35" lever action now, I'm tickled pink. The stock got a dark treatment with minwax preconditioner for soft wood (fingernail test? lol), then minwax dark walnut. Liberal dark walnut, left on for at least twenty minutes. The excess wiped off, and left to dry on a coat hanger hook, the stocks have a slight "stickum" feel to them, but look dark and aged. I was surprised at how much I liked the slight "stickum" feeling. I was going to finish clear it and buff it, but like the sure grip. Its not darkening my hands, and I cant see any handling marks. Again. This isn't a presentation piece, but it has a coating and its a surprisingly good shooter. The little pin spots of whatever down the bore here and there turned out not to matter much. Actually, I'm going to loosen up on my pickiness on bores when looking for bargains at used gun places. I have no problem toting this thing around in inclement weather, and certainly don't mind if I accidentally rub it against a tree to bench a shot. I know I can strip and blue it in about an hour, and while waiting for blueing to stand for a few minutes, I can wipe down the stocks with dark walnut, though none had been required. The tackiness that doesn't stain the hand, does seal out water amazingly well. I don't buy thousand dollar guns, simply because you're just using them up by shooting them. I target shoot way more than I actually hunt. If you have an expensive gun, let a professional gunsmith do the work. But if the stocks solid, and the action works okay, take a chance for a few bucks. trying to see past the rust on the outer finish can be hard, but some awful good bargains can be had in such a manner. Not to mention, I get an introduction to metal finishing in the bargain. Now I ain't afraid to finally do something with that perfectly good shooting .22 my late grandfather gave me (only thing, really...lol) that just has an old but solid stock and a patina of rust all over it. It isn't dollar worth what a real gunsmith would have to charge, but its actually in great condition compared to the above described lever action. I'll let you all know how it turns out. Wal mart brand Birchwood Casey "Blue and Rust Remover" and BC "Perma Blue" were under four bucks apiece, and there's TONS left over. Sean E Duvall
++ To blue or not to blue that is the question. I have been blueing for about 9 months and have tried everything short of using black paint. (Just kidding) I have read everything there is to read on parkerizing and blueing, and basically it's expensive. If you want to do it right it is anyways..... or if you want to pay someone to do it for you. My first try was the hand rub method... using birchwoodcasey products. First I degreased the parts, then the Rust and blue remover finally a good final cleaning on the bench grinder with the steel brush. Then I hand rubbed the Perma blue on and let it cure in gun oil. Final product okay (At the time beyond my wildest expectations) by todays standards.. acceptable at best. Next I tried the dunk method. I still clean the parts the same way, but I actually bought enough blueing solution to fill a little bath and dunk the parts in there and let them sit until the were blued. After which I once again cured them in gun oil. Final product: better, a tad darker but still not Factory. Next: The Boil and dunk method. Once again, cleaning the parts, as mentioned above but next I boiled them in a bath of water, epsom salt and baking soda. (This will remove whatever you thought you had removed but was still sticking on it . The Epson salt/Baking soda sets the boiling point a little higher : approx 225 degrees) Then the same dunk and cure method. Final result: Nice Dark and deep blueing. When curing the pieces black residue did come off, but I was told this is normal. I am very happy with this blueing, but I am about to try the Copper sulphate/Iron Chloride/Hydrochloric acid/Nitric acid in Water solution. and per the advice of the Local Curio and Relic Gunshop I will cure in WD40 this time. I want you to know I did have to build a couple of baths in PVC to accommodate all this, but I haven't spend the 125 $ I would have if I was to have a gun blued. One last word of advice.... You will have to look high and low to find Nitric Acid. I actually had a Neighbor (Aspiring Chemist) distill me a 90% pure batch of Nitric Acid. I will keep you all up to date on how this last blueing turns out. Michel M. Thiran
++ To all the gunsmith's out there who just post a short "this is my trick and I won't tell you" My question is "why are you even here? I thought this was designed to help people to get a better understanding about this process and possibly try their hand at it. To all the gunsmiths who have contributed advice and ideas..I applaud you. you care about actually helping people knowing that it probably won't make any negative impact on your business. The main reason of this post is to impart a few tidbits..no I am not a gunsmith but I am not afraid to try my hand at new things. I have a 98K Mauser that HAD a bit of pits in the metal and to spend $200 for refinishing AND have to wait a few months due to the workload of the local smiths is not a sensible option on a gun I paid $140 for. First of all I agree that the polishing job is one of the most important steps in this process. I have tried cold blues without success (of course this was before I realized polishing was such a big deal) and am now trying Dicropan IM From Brownells. A setup is not too terribly expensive. I am using their Black Iron tank ($40) and two electric hot plates bought at a local store ($50 for both). You will all probably laugh but for polishing I used a Craftsman benchtop belt sander with fine (160 grit) belts and was able to remove almost all the pits except for a couple deeper ones. When using this method, remember to use a light touch and constantly move the piece so that the belts will not wear away too much metal and make it look uneven. Another thing to remember that there is a point on the belt that has no metal behind it which allows the belt to bend inward a bit with light pressure and this was used with great results on the barrel. This method required a minimum of time and effort and produced what I think are great results that resulted in a nice shiny even mostly pit free surface. I will let you know how using the dicropan im goes. Hope this helps. Also I do agree with the gunsmiths who have posted..if the firearm is a rare treasured item then by all means take it to the professional because it is probably easy to mess it up. Michael A ---- And NO!!, this site was NOT designed to encourage untrained people to "try their hand" at fooling around with toxic & hazardous chemicals, and stovetop use of 295 degree pots of concentrated lye!
++ I found it interesting reading about all the people trying to find info about blueing guns. I have tried to find info and places to order chemicals to blue guns for about 2 years. The ones I have found and contacted haven't responded. I finally found a place called Shooter Solutions that sells parkerizing kits. I ordered one of their Dark charcoal parkerizing kits it was very easy to use just clean your piece and dilute the parkerizing solution with proper amount of water and heat to 200 degrees F and submerge part for about 20 min. or so or until sol stops fizzing take part out rinse with hot water and oil. Very good instructions are included with kit. The cost for one kit is only about $40.00 I have so far parkerized 4 long guns and they turned out to be a beautiful dark gray charcoal almost black color which is as tough as original military or more and it doesn't have any smell at all. I still have enough sol left to do several more long guns from the one kit I ordered. The prep before the process was wery easy also, all I did was sandblast with 280 grit corundum and rub smooth with Scotch Brit pads. A very easy, cheap and great product if you want a really tough parkerized finish.I like this finish better than bluing on gun for use as hunting guns.And the best part of all this is very safe and the chemicals are a lot less hazardous than any thing else I have found. Jerry Hoxit
++++ I came across this site some time ago and have been browsing it for letters on slow rust blueing. I want to use this process on some custom Mauser rifles that I am building, in stead of having them hot blued. I cannot get hold of the ready to use solutions, supplied by Brownell's amongst others, because US companies don't ship chemicals to Europe and these solutions are not available over here. I am not a chemist, but have access to a lot of chemicals since I am a teacher in a technical school. I would appreciate some proven recipes and "how to do this" for rust blue solutions that give a dark, black, sustainable appearance and that can be mixed and processed at home. Hope to get some answers soon! Marcel ten Thije
+++++ appended to existing thread by editor What is the difference between nickel and chrome? I have a llama corto short cal. 22 short. what finishes used in my handgun? and how can I remove it? how can I reblue that gun? because I want a new look and a blue finishes. it is necesssary to boil it on the water while in the process of reblueing? thanks! iIhope you'll help me for this matter. Robert Almario
+++++ Wow.and I just went to my local sporting goods store and bought a
3 step gun blue kit for 12 bucks. I think it worked great and all of
my household pets are still alive. Eric Russell Kozak
February 2, 2006 In response to the "editor's note" to post of April ., Mercury
compounds are illegal in the US, www.al-chymista.com will sell 25
grams Mercury Chloride for 6.50 USD. George Matovich Ed. note: We didn't say mercury compounds were illegal, we said they might be hard to get. Thanks for sourcing it for us.
September 1, 2006 Is anyone interested in continuing this thread? Tim Northcutt Ed. note: the thread remains active and supported, Tim. Please add whatever comments and answer whiatever questions you wish.
Oh well nothing to learn from me here just a little input, maybe some other wives out there might enjoy my post. Keep smiling, you made a woman with no gun interests (except shooting one) read all these interesting messages. Cathy Sansone
can anyone tell me the difference between gun blue #5 or #7, as opposed to gun blue #9. i just cant seem to find it anywhere. yvette barron
November 2, 2007 I don't think there is an industry-wide meaning or distinction to those numbers, Yvette. I think it's just individual brand names like the model numbers of individual automobiles. I prefer Jack Daniels' old #7 myself :-)
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