Letter 064

Help a beginner how to copper plate

Now if you're game, try this.... it works beautifully. Buy K-77 Root Killer [link is to product info at Amazon]. Mix one lb. to one gallon distilled water, bath temp approx. 75 degrees. Purchase a paint product from your local dealer of bright copper, metallic spray paint (not the real cheapo). Clean your substrate then spray it good. Allow one hour to dry then plate as usual. Man it comes out salmon pink.

Good luck,

Philip Camp
- Phenix City, Alabama

++ It may be against Federal law to use root killer in a way not in accordance with the indications for use as a root killer. Does anyone know what this stuff is, chemically? Tom Pullizzi platronica.com Falls Township, PA

Electroplating, Frederick A. Lowenheim

Proprietary products rarely tell you what they are 100%, but root killer is essentially copper sulphate, with perhaps some contaminants.

Ted Mooney, P.E.  finishing.com Brick, New Jersey

The composition of K77 root Killer is > 99% Copper Sulfate. Here is the Cornell University site for the Material Safety Data Sheet: http://msds.pdc.cornell.edu/msds/msdsdod/a246/m122546.htm#Section2

(Ed. note: sorry, that domain name no longer works).

Robert Sensenstein
- Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

I am a 'classic car 'restorer, and one of my biggest headaches is the quality of commercial electroplating work, It is simply not possible, here in the UK, to find any electroplating shop that is willing to spend the required time, and degree of care and understanding necessary when dealing with unique, irreplaceable auto parts.
I have attempted my own dull nickel plating process,with far better end results than any plating shop has ever produced for me, and I would like to try my own duplex chrome plating. This naturally entails an acid copper system (I would use nickel as a strike coat) Proprietary solutions are very expensive compared to commercially available forms of copper sulphate crystals, but I have read, in an item on this website, that there is more to a good acid copper solution than simple copper sulphate and sulphuric acid.
Is this important, given that it is only a 'base coat' for a further two coats of nickel, before the chrome?
Apart from this, is 'agricultural' copper sulphate, i.e.weedkiller, too impure to use as the basis for electroplating solution? Any help is greatly appreciated.
Many thanks,

Michael Holloway
Ancillary part of my business of classic auto restoration - Chesham, Buckinghamshire, England

+++++++ Those electroplating shops would not make their processes from root killer, Michael, although they use a great deal of copper sulphate and thus have the potential for saving a lot. So if you feel that you want to do better work that they, I can't see using root killer, but only pure products. Try to borrow or buy a cheap copy of the Metal Finishing Guidebook or the Canning Handbook to see the differences between a professional acid copper plating solution and root killer and why they are important. The only purpose of the copper plating (in this case) is to be soft and buffable; if you are not going to buff the copper to a mirror shine, I think you'd be better off leaving out the copper plating, and just going directly to nickel. That's what most OEMs do. Good luck! Ted Mooney finishing.com Brick, New Jersey

The Canning Handbook: Surface Finishing Technology

I found this letter while researching copper plating techniques, and I know it's an old thread by now, but it was the first relevant one I saw. In any case, thank you, because it did have the answers to most of my questions.

I do need to say, however, I am a little put off by the attitudes taken by the professionals who have been answering these questions here. Although your first response, Ted, did give a detailed answer to Lapo's question, it ended with and was followed by little more than thinly-veiled dismissal of any inquirers' ability to understand the chemistry behind it and not drink blue vitriol or HCl.

Granted, it is important to warn a complete beginner of the dangers of things like sulfuric acid, but Lapo at the very least showed enough of a grasp of chemistry to understand acids and know how to read MSDS datasheets. And even though Michael Holloway had limited experience with electroplating as well, his knowledge and concern for the importance of the finish on rare car parts is most likely much greater than that of someone who in plating those parts is being paid to repeat the same type of procedures as the last hundred times. It's somewhat similar to why fast food is sloppier and lower quality than its finer restaurant or gourmet counterparts.

And speaking of root killer and MSDS, I did some research and found the datasheet for K-77 Root Killer on the website of the manufacturer, Roebic, here http://www.roebic.com/pdf/K-77RootKillerMSDS.pdf
It is, in fact, >99% pure Copper(II) Sulfate Pentahydrate - the same purity as the LR (low resistivity) grade CuSO4·5H2O that is, according to my further research, commonly used in electroplating applications. Furthermore, I've found nothing anywhere that would indicate that K-77 is any more restricted in legal use than copper sulfate under any other brand, which makes sense - it is no different and includes no other chemicals, and is mostly environmentally safe (disposal via plumbing is ok, dumping in lakes and rivers discouraged but ok in small amounts) except in amounts or concentrations significantly greater than you'll find at Home Depot.

But yes, proprietary solutions do consist of more than copper sulfate and sulfuric acid. they usually also add small (very small) amounts of HCl, because chlorides at 30-100 ppm (depending on the rest of the solution) helps brighten the plating. So does the brightener, usually the main or only proprietary component that I've seen in professional solutions. For an example of the chemical composition of a brightener, check out this patent http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3715289.html

So, it might be easier just to buy some other company's - in my case anyway, that's where my tinkering with chemistry gives way to my wallet. Expensive, likely. Necessary? The professionals will always tell you yes. It's just my opinion as a casual idiot, but I've seen a few people achieve great results without it.

That's my casual, inexperienced two bits. Likely nobody reads this anyway, but maybe I added something worthwhile.

Kellin Mavis
- Houston, Texas

Thanks for your input, Kellin. About 600 people still visit this thread every month..

There was no dismissal of Lapo or anyone else. When someone says they are an "absolute beginner" and want a copper finish on their iron pieces, it's possible they may not realize that jobshop plating services are readily available, so I advised him of the option. You enjoy experimenting with plating, but doesn't mean that Lapo does. We don't know.

Many people love boat maintenance, whereas I'd rather spend the time in a dentist chair. I ask on boating sites where I can get so-and-so fixed, and people think they are doing me a favor by detailing how I can do it myself instead of answering my question of where I can get it fixed. They seem unable to conceive that I wouldn't love to do this myself, so it cuts both ways :-)

Lapo may or may not realize the extreme hazard of working with cyanide copper plating. Dozens of trained professionals have died working with it, and a man died in my own town a few years ago doing cyanide copper plating solution on his kitchen table, also putting the first-responder police officer into the hospital. We do our best to arm people with the facts by suggesting which plating book we think will be most helpful.

Ad-hominem postings are distracting, diluting the useful content of the site -- but we gave you your shot. Thanks again.

Ted Mooney finishing.com Brick, New Jersey

As for something different: when you've decorated easter eggs, have you ever written on the eggs with a white wax crayon to keep that area from absorbing dye? Maybe you can clean up a quarter real well, then write your name with that crayon before copper plating it?

Best of luck.

Ted Mooney finishing.com Brick, New Jersey

I have do everything u say from cleaning the surface of the metal & prepare the solution of plating. Every thing is go good & I wait atime until drying the plating ,but when I satart to ensure of plating stabilization the plating is not attached & not stabilized on the metal & it go off & the metal go back without plating.
please I want your help if I have to use stabilizer materials to can make fixation of the plating
thanks,

Khaled Hamed
master study - Isreal - Gaza

October 12, 2008 Hi, Khaled. This thread has grown long and rambling, so although you say you have done "everything" we've talked about, I'm not even clear on what metal you are trying to apply to what substrate from what kind of solution :-) But to re-state it from the beginning, you cannot electroplate copper directly onto steel with good adhesion from a copper sulphate solution. Is that what you are trying to do? Regards, Ted Mooney finishing.com Brick, New Jersey July 10, 2009 I tried this process as described above, but I can't get adhesion to pewter. It works great on dimes and nickels, but I have some pewter medallions that I want to copperplate and it just gets a black film that wipes off leaving the pewter looking a little greyer than before, but otherwise unchanged. Anyone know what I need to do differently? It is lead-free pewter, but I don't know the actual composition. By the way... The method does work BEAUTIFULLY on nickels and dimes!! Just not pewter. Nathanael Logsdon - Charlestown, IN, USA 1  <--Back   2