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Gunsmith Bluing (cont'd)
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To blue or not to blue that is the question.
I have been blueing for about 9 months and have tried everything short of using black paint. (Just kidding)
I have read everything there is to read on Parkerizing and blueing, and basically it's expensive. If you want to do it right it is anyways..... or if you want to pay someone to do it for you.
My first try was the hand rub method... using birchwood casey products. First I degreased the parts, then the Rust and blue remover finally a good final cleaning on the bench grinder with the steel brush. Then I hand rubbed the Perma blue on and let it cure in gun oil.
Final product okay (At the time beyond my wildest expectations) by todays standards.. acceptable at best.
Next I tried the dunk method. I still clean the parts the same way, but I actually bought enough blueing solution to fill a little bath and dunk the parts in there and let them sit until the were blued. After which I once again cured them in gun oil.
Final product: better, a tad darker but still not Factory.
Next: The Boil and dunk method. Once again, cleaning the parts, as mentioned above but next I boiled them in a bath of water, epsom salt and baking soda [linked by editor to product info at Amazon]. (This will remove whatever you thought you had removed but was still sticking on it . The Epson salt/Baking soda sets the boiling point a little higher : approx. 225 degrees) Then the same dunk and cure method.
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Final result: Nice Dark and deep blueing. When curing the pieces black residue did come off, but I was told this is normal. I am very happy with this blueing, but I am about to try the Copper sulphate/Iron Chloride/Hydrochloric acid/Nitric acid in Water solution. and per the advice of the Local Curio and Relic Gunshop I will cure in WD-40 [linked by editor to product info at Amazon] this time. I want you to know I did have to build a couple of baths in PVC to accommodate all this, but I haven't spend the 125 $ I would have if I was to have a gun blued. One last word of advice.... You will have to look high and low to find Nitric Acid. I actually had a Neighbor (Aspiring Chemist) distill me a 90% pure batch of Nitric Acid. I will keep you all up to date on how this last blueing turns out. Michel M. Thiran- Tarpon Springs, Florida |
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To all the gunsmith's out there who just post a short "this is my trick and I won't tell you" My question is "why are you even here? I thought this was designed to help people to get a better understanding about this process and possibly try their hand at it.
To all the gunsmiths who have contributed advice and ideas..I applaud you. you care about actually helping people knowing that it probably won't make any negative impact on your business.
The main reason of this post is to impart a few tidbits..no I am not a gunsmith but I am not afraid to try my hand at new things. I have a 98K Mauser that HAD a bit of pits in the metal and to spend $200 for refinishing AND have to wait a few months due to the workload of the local smiths is not a sensible option on a gun I paid $140 for. First of all I agree that the polishing job is one of the most important steps in this process. I have tried cold blues without success (of course this was before I realized polishing was such a big deal) and am now trying Dicropan I'm from
Brownells
[linked by editor to Brownells website]
A setup is not too terribly expensive. I am using their Black Iron tank ($40) and two electric hot plates bought at a local store ($50 for both). You will all probably laugh but for polishing I used a Craftsman benchtop belt sander with fine (160 grit) belts and was able to remove almost all the pits except for a couple deeper ones. When using this method, remember to use a light touch and constantly move the piece so that the belts will not wear away too much metal and make it look uneven. Another thing to remember that there is a point on the belt that has no metal behind it which allows the belt to bend inward a bit with light pressure and this was used with great results on the barrel. This method required a minimum of time and effort and produced what I think are great results that resulted in a nice shiny even mostly pit free surface. I will let you know how using the dicropan I'm goes. Hope this helps. Also I do agree with the gunsmiths who have posted..if the firearm is a rare treasured item then by all means take it to the professional because it is probably easy to mess it up.
- Port Orchard, Washington
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Ed. note: Thanks for the answers you provided, Michael. Please post any questions or answers you wish, but please don't try to make people whose postings you don't care for feel unwelcome.
And NO, this site was NOT designed to encourage untrained people to "try their hand" with toxic chemicals and 295 degree pots of concentrated lye! They should not even be attempting to use such chemicals until they have had Haz-mat training or at least hands-on instruction from experienced people. Hot black oxide solutions are a maimer and killer.
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I found it interesting reading about all the people trying to find info about blueing guns. I have tried to find info and places to order chemicals to blue guns for about 2 years. The ones I have found and contacted haven't responded. I finally found a place called Shooter Solutions that sells parkerizing kits. I ordered one of their Dark charcoal parkerizing kits it was very easy to use just clean your piece and dilute the parkerizing solution with proper amount of water and heat to 200 degrees F and submerge part for about 20 min. or so or until sol stops fizzing take part out rinse with hot water and oil. Very good instructions are included with kit. The cost for one kit is only about $40.00 I have so far parkerized 4 long guns and they turned out to be a beautiful dark gray charcoal almost black color which is as tough as original military or more and it doesn't have any smell at all. I still have enough sol left to do several more long guns from the one kit I ordered. The prep before the process was very easy also, all I did was sandblast with 280 grit corundum and rub smooth with Scotch Brite pads. A very easy, cheap and great product if you want a really tough parkerized finish.I like this finish better than bluing on gun for use as hunting guns.And the best part of all this is very safe and the chemicals are a lot less hazardous than any thing else I have found.
Jerry Hoxit- Brevard, North Carolina USA
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I came across this site some time ago and have been browsing it for letters on slow rust blueing. I want to use this process on some custom Mauser rifles that I am building, in stead of having them hot blued.
I cannot get hold of the ready to use solutions, supplied by Brownell's amongst others, because US companies don't ship chemicals to Europe and these solutions are not available over here.
I am not a chemist, but have access to a lot of chemicals since I am a teacher in a technical school.
I would appreciate some proven recipes and "how to do this" for rust blue solutions that give a dark, black, sustainable appearance and that can be mixed and processed at home.
Hope to get some answers soon!
Marcel ten Thijehome gunsmith - Borculo, Netherlands
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Wow, and I just went to my local sporting goods store and bought a
3 step gun blue kit for 12 bucks. I think it worked great and all of my household pets are still alive.
While reading the questions and responses I see basically the same exchanges. those who don't know how dangerous this stuff really is as well as the responses from people who actually have a clue as to the potential hazards involved. I Being one of those people that always tries to do it myself and for some reason I usually succeed.
I thank all of the people who know for telling all of us who don't know, to stay away from the field of chemistry. Unless we know where to shop for the stuff we probably shouldn't be messin with it.
GREAT SITE!
have an awesome day!
- Youngsville, North Carolina
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In response to the "editor's note" to post about Mercury compounds being illegal in the US, www.al-chymista.com will sell 25 grams Mercury Chloride for 6.50 USD. This may be different from nearly 6 years ago.
What I am trying to duplicate is a bluing solution I had made at a local apothecary's shop, aka, druggist, 48 years ago, recipe as follows:
Sodium Nitrate 7.5 grams
Potassium Nitrate 7.5 grams
Mercury Chloride 15 grams
Potassium Chlorate 15 grams
Sweet Spirit of Nitre 15 grams
Distilled Water 10 ounces
At www.al-chymist.com ,Mercury Chloride, 25 grams, 6.50
Sodium Nitrate, 1# 4.00
Potassium Nitrate 1# 8.00
Sweet Spirit of Nitre is Nitric acid, I assume 70%.
Potassium Chlorate, from another site, 250 grams, 13.10, has to be available at a lower price, just haven't found it, 17 times what's needed, and the pound quantities, forever stock
My pint bottle, brown glass, has evaporated to the last inch and a half, don't know if I have lost just the water, can add more distilled, get back to 8 ounces or so.
Have tanks welded up for me 35 years ago, never used them.
Cheers,
- Rillton, Pennsylvania, USA
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Ed. note: Thanks for sourcing the chemicals for us, George. We didn't exactly say mercury compounds were illegal, but we did say they might be hard to get because they are toxic. Your reply helps.
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Is anyone interested in continuing this thread?
Hi,
I'm new here and have been reading through these posts. I can probably answer or direct folks to the answers of most of these questions.
Thanks
- Austin, Texas
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Ed. note: the thread remains active and supported, Tim. Please add whatever comments and answer whatever questions you wish.
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I was goggling for Blue Wonder => |
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Oh well nothing to learn from me here just a little input, maybe some other wives out there might enjoy my post.
Keep smiling, you made a woman with no gun interests (except shooting one) read all these interesting messages.
- Ennis, Texas
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Ed. note: Thanks for your peaceful letter, Cathy; it lowered my blood pressure a few points :-)
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can anyone tell me the difference between gun blue #5 or #7, as opposed to gun blue #9. I just can't seem to find it anywhere.
yvette barronbass pro - bossier city, Louisiana
+++++++These are not industry standards, Yvette, and I don't think there is any industry-wide meaning or distinction to such numbers. I think it's just individual brand names like the model numbers of individual automobiles. I like Jack Daniels' old #7 :-)
Ted Mooney, P.E. RET
finishing.com
Brick, New Jersey
May 14, 2010
Steven, If you can get a copy of Roy Dunlap's Gunsmithing [link is to info about book on Amazon] book it will have some good bluing tips. I have used the nitre combo mix and it does a great job, but is very time consuming. Very durable. I have used the sodium nitrate-potassium nitrate-caustic soda combo, which is probably one of the best around. Again, getting the combinations right is key, and as others have suggested, polishing and cleaning is vital. The nitrate version is the one I am currently using. Used to be able to buy the Royal Black but can't find it anymore. good luck
Ray hynes- Bristol's Hope, Newfoundland
July 22, 2010
Hi, I would like to be very blunt for a minute... If all you have to say is leave it to a professional, I would really not like to hear the rest of what you have to say! In all due respect, you are "master gunsmith's" yes, but the issue that I have is that I am a very talented young man with a grandfather that was a gunsmith that died before I was born and a father that is a Master pipe-fitter/steamfitter. I have learn many things from my father and have been blessed with his mechanical talents, hell I was taking apart cars when I was 13!
All I hear is leave it to a professional, but my question is, where did you learn it from? Don't you owe someone to pass on your trade? I live in Phoenix and I'll be damned if I can find a gunsmith that is worth his salt, so to say, to take me on as an apprentice, and comes with the benefit of me cleaning the shop and I'm talking about polishing machines to a luster to match the weapons they turn out just to be taught the "right" way. And the response that I have got has been all about not wanting to have someone steal their secrets or some other lame excuse that revolves around the same idea.
I must be missing something but the same trade secrets that you are trying to protect are the same secrets that are going to die with you just like my grandfathers and in this world, you more than anyone should know that things just aren't done right anymore. Maybe there is a reason for that? Well my answer to that is I will teach myself and take the time to learn how to do things the right way without the help of anyone, even though I would like to have someone there to let me know I am doing things right. for what its worth think twice about why you discourage the younger generation and maybe you will start finding secrets of why most young kids are so screwed up.
anyway that is just my 2 cents for what its worth and I have found all of the chemicals needed to put together the mix, even the solution in the amateur gun-smithing book, and yes I had to learn how to make spirits of nitre all my myself. and to add I put my entire bluing setup tanks, salts and all together for just about 100.00 usd. I also took 4 years of jewelry class in high school and was a body man for a while and can make metal shine like glass. I don't think it will take that long to learn.
So in closing, yes, I would love more than anything to hand scrub a shop to learn the proper ways of doing things because I take pride in what I do and if it's all for nothing someone just got a polished floor and machines out of the deal. But I don't think I'll have any takers, I haven't so far. My suggestion, get some books and read everything, take a machining class and practice making perfect junk and turn your own guns into works of art and still not have any respect but now you did the job right. thanks for your time. I'm still a potential apprentice.
- Maricopa, Arizona
P.S.: and please, don't take recopies out of books and write them down here, a simple pointing the direction to the book so they can read all of the authors not about how to put solutions together because without good knowledge of chemistry and a fair amount of common sense, you're going to get someone hurt. Especially when you are guessing about one of the ingredients of a solution.
November 21, 2010This comment is to Justin Gates, Justin I understand your need to learn this stuff. I too have a passion for guns and would like to get better at gunsmithing. I am planning on attending a 5 day session or 2 at the gunsmithing school in Oklahoma this summer. They hold 5 day sessions covering different topics all summer. I want to learn more about using a mill and lathe for barrels. Their classes are reasonable 250.00$ and lodging at the school is like 50.00$ a day. The total class will cost me 500. Very reasonable to learn a trade many want to keep "Secret". I hope this helps: www.nragunsmithing.com/murray.html
Mark Davis
- Fort Worth, Texas, USA
April 24, 2011
This has been interesting reading.
Years ago I came across a formula for hot bluing salts that I used to reblue a pistol and three 22 pistols that I made.
1 US gallon of water.
5 pounds of caustic soda.
2 1/2 pounds 33% ammonium nitrate fertilizer.
Get the water boiling and add the caustic soda keeping the water to a slow rolling boil.
A little at a time add the ammonium nitrate. There is a heat producing chemical reaction so it is necessary to keep reducing the heat as you add the ammonium nitrate. The down side is that there are large volumes on ammonia gas released. Stay down wind and on a still day use a fan to create a wind. Do this out side.
The bluing from this formula is on the blackish side but is quite durable.
A couple of years ago I tried to source some caustic soda to make a new batch for a barrel I put on a Falling Block Works action and never got around to bluing. It seems that the home brew pharmaceuticals use caustic soda and in Canada it is like hens teeth.
I decided that I would have to rust blue the barrel and went looking at what is available. I quickly realized that shipping rust bluing chemicals was going to problematic and expensive. Make my own seemed to be a reasonable solution to my problem. Nitric acid always seems to be needed but again problematic and expensive and expensive shipping. I finally found a formula that I actually had all the required chemicals for.
2 fl oz hydrochloric acid sometimes labeled muriatic acid (building supply)
2 fl oz ferric chloride (circuit board etching, electronics hobby store)
8 fl oz distilled water (drug store)
8 fl oz methyl hydrate (building supply)
The only caution here is that you must add the acid to the water, then you can chuck all the other stuff in in any order. I found out very quickly that hydrochloric acid as diluted as it was still fumed and turned stuff in my shop rusty. Before exacerbating the situation I added framing nails until there was no more digestion. The last nail just would not get eaten away. There was a black sediment that I think was the carbon in the nails, I used a coffee filter and a plastic funnel to filter that out. It would probably be better to kill the water/ hydrochloric acid mixture before adding the ferric chloride and methyl hydrate.
The long and the short of it was I ended up with a nice rust blued barrel. I took 2 goes to get it right. I was expecting to see red rust and waited and waited (to long) and got pitting. The barrel did rust but was a very dark brown with purple hints.
Hints. Shellac in the bore and any other places that absolutely do not need to turn rusty, works wonders. When the bluing is done methyl hydrate will remove the shellac.
Red rust will turn to black oxide using electrolysis and seems to do a more thorough job than boiling. Google for "electrolysis rust removal". The electrolysis method uses washing or baking soda that will kill any acid.
- Williams Lake BC Canada
November 2, 2011
Follow up to my previous posting....
I have taken the time to fully research all the chemicals involved in the old bluing methods and I have to say that I have some new pointers....
First...Sweet Spirit of Nitre evaporates to fast to even have it as a usable chemical. As oppose to making my owe I obtained some from a chemical supply store, and no you CANNOT GET IT FROM A DRUGEST, its barely made or used now days. The name for it is ether and was used in starting fluid until the fda took it off the shelf, hence why it started cars so well, atomizes very fast.
I have found that you can sub hydrochloric acid for muriatic acid and is in just about the same aqueous solution that was used with hydrochloric acid. This is a gentle prep bath for taking out copper fouling out of the barrels that will deplete you new bluing solution. Temp about 150f will do fine to open the pours in the metal and release trapped grease and grit without a harsh effect on the metal.
After fifteen minutes in that bath take and soak in just under boiling water the rid the acids. Some with say to add a bit of vinegar or something to that like but I have not had to, it just neutralizes the acid.
Next let it dry and cool, common sense "hot don't touch" and then you may start your polishing. 110% of your bluing job comes down to prep, don't skimp. Card with file, 60 grit to take out the carding scratches all the way up to buffing for me. I like perfection.
Next your tank of sodium hydroxide, you need to clean the parts once again. 175f will be just fine," again common sense sodium hydroxide will blind you with just a drop" prepare and as for me, I wear a full suit going forward.
Dip in the tank and please done cork or plug the barrel because you're asking for an accident. Remember when heat up and cool down pressure from the atoms expanding causes a bad situation. I took this next line out of a book and I would quote but the author and book is not in front of me. After fifteen minutes lift up just a little bit of the part out of the bath for just a second, if the water rolls off you still have oil or something on the part, this will give you splotches. After you can lift it up and I say just for a second because the rusting will start very quickly being exposed to the air you can take the part and place it back in the hot water for a quick rinse. Then into the bluing bath.
My concoction is:
2 parts sodium nitrate
1 part potassium nitrate
1.5 parts sodium hydroxide
1 or 2 table spoons of non-iodized salt
And 5 parts water.
Mix dry ingredients first.
Then (slowly add distilled water)
Bring up to temp; I don't us a thermometer I just keep it right at a simmer. This will take a while and you will have to mix it up as it comes up to temp. I would once again use ppe and well ventilated area but this mix will not combust 1 because of the lack of carbon 2 you need 2 times the energy to bring the mix to critical.
Soak for fifteen or 20 minutes then I move my parts to an ice bath for a few seconds then back in the bluing solution for 10 minutes then into the hot water for 15 minutes. After that let dry and swab the bore with and oil patch and oil the hell out of it. I use marvels mystery oil, but that's up to you.
Like I said before, everything is in a book and I had to read an organic and inorganic chem book just for back up. If you don't know what you are doing or can't even do the proper research to find out what the old names of chemicals were compared to what they call them now, you're going to hurt yourself because this is an art not for the lazy man. Just my thoughts. If I missed something please post so I may correct.
- Maricopa, Arizona