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Help a beginner how to copper plate, p.2
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Now if you're game, try this.... it works beautifully. Buy K-77 Root Killer [linked by editor to product info at Amazon]. Mix one lb. to one gallon distilled water, bath temp approx. 75 degrees. Purchase a paint product from your local dealer of bright copper, metallic spray paint (not the real cheapo). Clean your substrate then spray it good. Allow one hour to dry then plate as usual. Man it comes out salmon pink.
Good luck,
Philip Camp- Phenix City, Alabama
++ It may be against Federal law to use root killer in a way not in accordance with the indications for use as a root killer. Does anyone know what this stuff is, chemically?
Tom Pullizzi
Falls Township, Pennsylvania
Electroplating
Frederick A. Lowenheim
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Proprietary products rarely tell you what they are 100%, but most root killer is essentially copper sulphate pentahydrate, although perhaps there may be some contaminants.
Ted Mooney, P.E.
finishing.com
Brick, New Jersey
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The composition of K77 root Killer is > 99% Copper Sulfate. Here is the Cornell University site for the Material Safety Data Sheet:
Robert Sensensteinhttp://msds.pdc.cornell.edu/msds/msdsdod/a246/m122546.htm#Section2
- Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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Ed. note: Thanks, Robert. Sorry readers, that domain name no longer works.
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Q. I am a 'classic car 'restorer, and one of my biggest headaches is the quality of commercial electroplating work, It is simply not possible, here in the UK, to find any electroplating shop that is willing to spend the required time, and degree of care and understanding necessary when dealing with unique, irreplaceable auto parts.
I have attempted my own dull nickel plating process,with far better end results than any plating shop has ever produced for me, and I would like to try my own duplex chrome plating. This naturally entails an acid copper system (I would use nickel as a strike coat) Proprietary solutions are very expensive compared to commercially available forms of copper sulphate crystals, but I have read, in an item on this website, that there is more to a good acid copper solution than simple copper sulphate and sulphuric acid.
Is this important, given that it is only a 'base coat' for a further two coats of nickel, before the chrome?
Apart from this, is 'agricultural' copper sulphate, i.e.weed killer, too impure to use as the basis for electroplating solution? Any help is greatly appreciated.
Many thanks,
classic auto restoration - Chesham, Buckinghamshire, England
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January 14, 2008
I found this letter while researching copper plating techniques, and I know it's an old thread by now, but it was the first relevant one I saw. In any case, thank you, because it did have the answers to most of my questions.
I do need to say, however, I am a little put off by the attitudes taken by the professionals who have been answering these questions here. Although your first response, Ted, did give a detailed answer to Lapo's question, it ended with and was followed by little more than thinly-veiled dismissal of any inquirers' ability to understand the chemistry behind it and not drink blue vitriol or HCl.
Granted, it is important to warn a complete beginner of the dangers of things like sulfuric acid, but Lapo at the very least showed enough of a grasp of chemistry to understand acids and know how to read MSDS datasheets. And even though Michael Holloway had limited experience with electroplating as well, his knowledge and concern for the importance of the finish on rare car parts is most likely much greater than that of someone who in plating those parts is being paid to repeat the same type of procedures as the last hundred times. It's somewhat similar to why fast food is sloppier and lower quality than its finer restaurant or gourmet counterparts.
And speaking of root killer and MSDS, I did some research and found the datasheet for K-77 Root Killer on the website of the manufacturer, Roebic, here http://www.roebic.com/pdf/K-77RootKillerMSDS.pdf
It is, in fact, >99% pure Copper(II) Sulfate Pentahydrate - the same purity as the LR (low resistivity) grade CuSO4·5H2O that is, according to my further research, commonly used in electroplating applications. Furthermore, I've found nothing anywhere that would indicate that K-77 is any more restricted in legal use than copper sulfate under any other brand, which makes sense - it is no different and includes no other chemicals, and is mostly environmentally safe (disposal via plumbing is ok, dumping in lakes and rivers discouraged but ok in small amounts) except in amounts or concentrations significantly greater than you'll find at Home Depot.
But yes, proprietary solutions do consist of more than copper sulfate and sulfuric acid. they usually also add small (very small) amounts of HCl, because chlorides at 30-100 ppm (depending on the rest of the solution) helps brighten the plating. So does the brightener, usually the main or only proprietary component that I've seen in professional solutions. For an example of the chemical composition of a brightener, check out this patent http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3715289.html
So, it might be easier just to buy some other company's - in my case anyway, that's where my tinkering with chemistry gives way to my wallet. Expensive, likely. Necessary? The professionals will always tell you yes. It's just my opinion as a casual idiot, but I've seen a few people achieve great results without it.
That's my casual, inexperienced two bits. Likely nobody reads this anyway, but maybe I added something worthwhile.
- Houston, Texas
January 14, 2008Thanks for your input, Kellin. About 1300 people visit this thread every month, so your contribution will be appreciated!
Please remember that internet forums are giant one-room schoolhouses, read by 3rd graders and by post-doctorates alike, and that there are a hundred readers for every poster. Sometimes when a question is asked we mention things in the response that the original inquirer may not need to be reminded of, but which less experienced readers definitely need to be warned about, like the extreme hazard of working with cyanide copper plating. Dozens of trained professionals have died working with it, including 6 at Bastion Plating in 1984, and a man in my very own town died a few years ago doing cyanide copper plating on his kitchen table, also putting the first-responding police officer in the hospital.
An "absolute beginner" may not realize that jobshop plating services are readily available, so I advised Lapo of that option. It cuts both ways you know: Many people love boat maintenance, and are happy as a clam with a beer in one hand and a scraper in the other -- whereas I'd rather spend time in a dentist chair. I ask on boating sites where I can get so-and-so fixed, and people think they are doing me a favor by detailing how I can proudly do it myself instead of answering my question. They seem unable to conceive that I wouldn't love to do this myself :-)
Ad-hominem postings are distracting and dilute the useful content of a site -- so please continue to offer advice, and contradict any statements you disagree with, but please don't derail the discussion by criticizing me or other posters. Thanks again.
Ted Mooney, P.E.
finishing.com
Brick, New Jersey
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January 17, 2008
Q. Specifically doing a sixth grade science project and trying to be the good Dad. Do you think a potato battery will generate enough current to copper plate a small brass key. Can I use copper sulfate dissolved in white vinegar? Amount of copper sulfate to vinegar required? Using a 2 inch piece of copper pipe hammered flat on other wire. Scott Durham- Charleston South Carolina
February 18, 2008 Q. I am a grade nine student trying to perform copper plating with common kitchen products. Mom says nothing too dangerous. My Dad is away, so it's just me and my Mom. We have already used the battery and copper wires in some salt water to see what happens, so I think to take it further would be an interesting project. Every project known to man is already being done. I would love to do something different this year. Thanks to anyone that can help dalton scottstudent - Canada |
February 21, 2008
A. See our FAQ on How Electroplating Works for the details for super-safe copper plating for school projects, Dalton -- you can tell your mom that no chemicals except vinegar are used.
As for something different: have you ever decorated easter eggs by writing on the eggs with a white wax crayon or otherwise masking areas before dyeing to keep that area from absorbing dye? Maybe you can clean up a quarter real well, then make symbols with very thin strips of tape before copper plating it? Electroplating often involves masking like that.
Best of luck.
Ted Mooney, P.E.
finishing.com
Brick, New Jersey
October 6, 2008
Q. I have done everything you say from cleaning the surface of the metal & preparing the solution of plating. Everything is good. I wait a time until drying the plating, but when I start to ensure of plating stabilization the plating is not attached & not stabilized on the metal & it goes off & the metal go back to being without plating.
Please I want your help if I have to use stabilizer materials to can make fixation of the plating
thanks,
master study - Isreal - Gaza
October 12, 2008A. Hi, Khaled. This thread has grown long and rambling, so although you say you've done everything we've talked about, I'm not clear what metal you are trying to apply to what substrate from what kind of solution :-)
But to re-state it from the beginning, you can't electroplate copper directly onto steel with good adhesion from a copper sulphate solution. Is that what you were trying to do?
Regards,
Ted Mooney, P.E.
finishing.com
Brick, New Jersey
July 10, 2009
Q. I tried this process as described above, but I can't get adhesion to pewter. It works great on dimes and nickels, but I have some pewter medallions that I want to copper plate and it just gets a black film that wipes off leaving the pewter looking a little greyer than before, but otherwise unchanged. Anyone know what I need to do differently? It is lead-free pewter, but I don't know the actual composition.
By the way... The method does work BEAUTIFULLY on nickels and dimes! Just not pewter.
- Charlestown, Indiana
April 28, 2010A. Hi, Nathanael. Modern lead-free pewter is 90+% tin, and tin is anodic to copper. That means copper sulphate tends to auto-deposit on pewter as a non-adherent immersion coating just as it auto-deposits on steel. You probably need cyanide copper plating (very dangerous) or a proprietary copper pyrophosphate solution (available from EPI or Zinex). It is possible that hobby plating vendors offer proprietary copper pyrophosphate plating baths too.
Regards,
Ted Mooney, P.E.
finishing.com
Brick, New Jersey
April 28, 2010
To make one liter of solution:
Copper sulfate crystal: 66 grams
Deionized or distilled water: 710 ml
35% Sulfuric acid: 290 ml
35% hydrochloric acid: 0.14 ml
Temperature of solution: 26 degrees Centigrade
Cathode current density: 30 Amps per square foot
Anode to Cathode surface area ratio = 2:1
Voltage: 5 to 12 Volts DC
Use air bubbles or mechanical stirring to agitate solution
- London, U.K.
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Ed. note: We thank Jonathan, but students and inexperienced hobbyists should know that we are no longer talking about the "safe" electroplating some were looking for: these are strong acids.
| September 13, 2010
Q. Please explain electroplating of copper. we're doing an experiment where copper is the anode and a metal spoon is the cathode - Perth, WA, Australia
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Naked Eggs & Flying Potatoes: |
January 30, 2011
Q. Okay, so I do need a little babysitting on my question /adventure, so please bear with me... I have taken general and organic chemistry in college, I do remember the basic principles, and have always varied a healthy caution, but am a lil rusty ;)
Similar to a gentleman earlier in this thread, I'm trying to copper plate an Auto part, and could really use some technical assistance!
Start with one 20 gallon gas tank that is 60" x 14" x 8", completely covered in rust. I've used the electrolysis to absolutely clean the internal to a beautiful shine, and now am ready to core the steel tank with a material that is far more rust resilient. The idea of being able to copper plate this fuel tank has become the focus of nearly two weeks of evening reading.
Is it possible to plate the tank from the inside out using copper wire, sheet, tube, etc? What type of solution and setup would be most likely to create a good bond between the steel and copper? I noticed on an earlier thread that a high amp charge will cause some carbonation (or darkening) to the surface of the copper. While I do intend to show off my (more or less, your) extremely high intelligence levels, I'm really willing to forego aesthetics for the functionality of the enhanced copper/steel container.
There are 2.5" diameter holes (for the neck where the fuel comes into the tank, and on the other side, a hole that the fuel gauge attaches) on opposite ends of the tank, so I could run a copper tube, wire, etc. through each hole or one at a time whichever would be most effective.
Thanks so much for any and all help!
freight carrier - milwaukie, oregon united states
January 31, 2011
A. Hi, Justin. Gasoline chemistry can be complex and I don't know if copper plating is compatible with gasoline. Plating blind inside a gas tank is exceptionally difficult for an experienced professional; the plating will only go where the electricity goes, and the electricity follows the path of least resistance (the shortest route). so I think you should do quite a bit practice with a less critical item before risking this item that you've worked hard on.
I think if I were you I would test immersion plating from a dilute copper sulphate bath on some similar item and see if you can get enough adhesion. Immersion plating will deposit evenly even in the corners. Put in a fresh fuel filter just in case :-)
Regards,
Ted Mooney, P.E.
finishing.com
Brick, New Jersey
March 8, 2011
Q. I am curious about vinegar and salt the solution that includes a small amount of ethylene glycol. What does the ethylene glycol do? Is it a brightener? Something else?
Thanks,
Michael
- Bothell, Washington USA
March 8, 2011
A. Hi, Michael.
Something that we keep repeating is that the electroplating experiments we developed are super simple and relatively safe electroplating procedure for elementary school students to demonstrate electroplating for their science projects -- but there was never any intention of it being practical for any actual application at all. Yes, the purpose of ethylene glycol (or better yet, sugar because it is safer), is to play the role of a brightener. Does it really work? Maybe a little bit, maybe not; the plating is very thin and marginal, so it's hard to tell :-)
Regards,
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 Ted Mooney, P.E. finishing.com Brick, New Jersey |